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View Poll Results: would you allow a first timer drawn as #1 dog to drop back

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  • yes 6 dogs

    20 19.23%
  • yes middle of the pack

    22 21.15%
  • no

    62 59.62%
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Thread: first time and first dog

  1. #21
    Senior Member Randy Bohn's Avatar
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    My post had nothing to do with the manipulation of the running order...read it again ed...you been around a loooong time and know EXACTLY what I mean...
    CHRIS ATKINSON...PLEASE don't QUIT CHANGING MY PROFILE PAGE!!

    "And if you have a golden, bring TWO towels!"

  2. #22
    Senior Member Bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    Let's perpetuate some urban myths. When the draw was done by the FTS manipulation was possible. With a random computer draw manipulation is almost impossible, I am not sure if Paul, Randy, and the bull guy have been a FTS but I have and if manipulation was possible it would be for the new guy not against him, so I am calling BS on the conspiracy theory advocates!
    I've been to a goat roping and a FT AAaaaaaannnnnnnnnDDDDddd been a HTS many times- before and after EE. Here to tell you that it is not only possible but extremely convenient to change the EE suggested draw. Even EE adjusts the random draw to ensure that dogs with the same handler are spaced several dogs apart.

    At the end of the day- it don't matter. Try as hard as desired, Lady Luck decides the outcome often enough.

    It ain't a myth - I have data regards

    Bubba
    There are three classes of people: those who see...those who see when shown...and those who do not see. - Leonardo da Vinci

  3. #23
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohn View Post
    you been around a loooong time and know EXACTLY what I mean...
    Some might think too long but long enough to know that whether you are a rookie or a veteran you should display sportsmanship and run your dog when you are supposed to run your dog. In the recent past I ran my three dogs in the first 10 in a 45 dog Amateur but no one seemed to care about the dogs who weren't there but should have been.

  4. #24
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    I've been to a goat roping and a FT AAaaaaaannnnnnnnnDDDDddd been a HTS many times- before and after EE. Here to tell you that it is not only possible but extremely convenient to change the EE suggested draw. Even EE adjusts the random draw to ensure that dogs with the same handler are spaced several dogs apart.

    At the end of the day- it don't matter. Try as hard as desired, Lady Luck decides the outcome often enough.

    It ain't a myth - I have data regards

    Bubba
    Well maybe things are different in the Pacific Northwest, not on my circuit or Blake's from Arkansas

  5. #25
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    People will always find ways to game the system. They use loopholes in the rules or count on the fact nobody will report them. Running order can be manipulated but frankly that's a crap shoot to say its beneficial.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
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    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

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    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  6. #26
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    I haven't been on this forum much (more active on the CBR forum), so don't know if the tone of the replies to this post are typical, but here's a point of view from a newbie, that some of the previous posters to this thread may want to consider. (Or maybe you'll all tell me to stick it...)

    I'm a new handler, with my first dog, who competed in my first derby today. Over the last 16 months, to learn about the sport, I joined 2 local clubs and volunteered to marshal at about 8 events, field trials and hunt tests. I am VERY happy that no one I came across ever tried to tell me that things were fixed or that cheating was common, or that newbies didn't stand a chance. I likely would have walked away before I ever started.

    Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but where I've been, I have heard a lot of folks talking about how they need to get new and younger people interested in the sport so it doesn't die out. Making new folks think they don't stand a chance sure isn't a way to get them interested!

    From my personal perspective only, I've got to say, that my experience has been nothing but postive from the folks I've come across so far. I know there are bad eggs in every game, but I have to say that at my first trial this weekend, to a person, including other handlers, pros and amateurs alike, and judges, people could not have been more encouraging, helpful and supportive.

    After a less-than-stellar first outing (due to inexperienced handler more than anything), if I had been hearing things like I read in some of the comments above, I might have just thrown in the towel. Instead, I walked away from the trial this weekend with a load of determination, lots of good, helpful advice, and hopefully some new friends met along the way.

    If, being new, I misread the tone of the comments (not all of them) above, my sincere apologies. If not, then you might want to think in the future when answering an honest question from a newbie, who is just looking for information and advice, to be less caustic and more straighforward in answering.

    To the folks who took the time to give a thoughtful reply to this question, thanks from another newbie, even though this wasn't my question. It's nice to know there are people out there willing to give sound advice to those of us newbies out here who are willing to listen and learn!

    PS- the reason I opened this post tonight was because of the title 'first time and first dog', since as a newbie I was curious to see what other newbies are asking about...
    Last edited by dinaperugini; 09-22-2013 at 09:11 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Bubba's Avatar
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    Really hard pressed to see where you got the idea that the whole game was rigged and a first timer didn't stand a chance. Speculation that the running order might not be completely random? The OP asked if it might be possible to run later in the order so that he might observe and learn. The upshot of the conversation that I saw was that maybe the running order wasn't completely random but that in the greater scheme of things it really isn't that important. If you gleaned additional information from the posts - that is YOUR issue. Bottom line is that some poor dumbass is going to be dog #1 and that ain't all bad.

    Might not be completely random but run yer dawg anyway regards

    Bubba
    There are three classes of people: those who see...those who see when shown...and those who do not see. - Leonardo da Vinci

  8. #28
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinaperugini View Post
    I haven't been on this forum much (more active on the CBR forum), so don't know if the tone of the replies to this post are typical, but here's a point of view from a newbie, that some of the previous posters to this thread may want to consider. (Or maybe you'll all tell me to stick it...)

    I'm a new handler, with my first dog, who competed in my first derby today. Over the last 16 months, to learn about the sport, I joined 2 local clubs and volunteered to marshal at about 8 events, field trials and hunt tests. I am VERY happy that no one I came across ever tried to tell me that things were fixed or that cheating was common, or that newbies didn't stand a chance. I likely would have walked away before I ever started.

    Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but where I've been, I have heard a lot of folks talking about how they need to get new and younger people interested in the sport so it doesn't die out. Making new folks think they don't stand a chance sure isn't a way to get them interested!

    From my personal perspective only, I've got to say, that my experience has been nothing but postive from the folks I've come across so far. I know there are bad eggs in every game, but I have to say that at my first trial this weekend, to a person, including other handlers, pros and amateurs alike, and judges, people could not have been more encouraging, helpful and supportive.

    After a less-than-stellar first outing (due to inexperienced handler more than anything), if I had been hearing things like I read in some of the comments above, I might have just thrown in the towel. Instead, I walked away from the trial this weekend with a load of determination, lots of good, helpful advice, and hopefully some new friends met along the way.

    If, being new, I misread the tone of the comments (not all of them) above, my sincere apologies. If not, then you might want to think in the future when answering an honest question from a newbie, who is just looking for information and advice, to be less caustic and more straighforward in answering.

    To the folks who took the time to give a thoughtful reply to this question, thanks from another newbie, even though this wasn't my question. It's nice to know there are people out there willing to give sound advice to those of us newbies out here who are willing to listen and learn!

    PS- the reason I opened this post tonight was because of the title 'first time and first dog', since as a newbie I was curious to see what other newbies are asking about...
    A lot of truth, here! And this has been my experience as a new person to the sport as well. The reality at a hunt test or field trial is much much different than that here on RTF. Not that I don't love RTF, but there is a lot of sarcasm and myth telling to weed through some days.

    As for following the rules in the strictest sense. It's a Derby! It a first timer, there's a well seasoned pro running number 3. Let the pro, who needs to get over to the Open (oh yeah and to facilitate the running of the trial), run before the newbie, so he has at least two dogs to watch and at least 3 minutes to go barf behind his truck before it's his turn. Geeze o Peat.

    If the rules were to be strictly adhered to in a Derby, I and 1000 other first timers would be thrown out of the first series for talking to their dog, or patting their leg between birds or having their dog take off half a second before being sent. Judges know when the person and dog are first timers and that they need some advice and lee way to keep the experience a good one. So many judges let so many first time idiots skate on errors like that for a very good reason.

    Why not let Danny Farmer run his dog first and let his guy go second? I think Mr Farmer can handle it...

  9. #29
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    I think that in addition to being allowed to run when they want to, they should be allowed a handle or two....

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    Really hard pressed to see where you got the idea that the whole game was rigged and a first timer didn't stand a chance. Speculation that the running order might not be completely random? The OP asked if it might be possible to run later in the order so that he might observe and learn. The upshot of the conversation that I saw was that maybe the running order wasn't completely random but that in the greater scheme of things it really isn't that important. If you gleaned additional information from the posts - that is YOUR issue. Bottom line is that some poor dumbass is going to be dog #1 and that ain't all bad.

    Might not be completely random but run yer dawg anyway regards

    Bubba
    Pardon me if I offended anyone, but I pretty clearly stated that since I'm new, maybe I misinterpreted. And, I never said I thought the whole game was rigged. However, being new, I think when someone reads statements like yours talking about the manipulation of the running order, or of Randy's talking about the sleazy cheating that goes on at trials, it's not unreasonable for a new person to question whether you are being serious in your replies. I also understand what the original post was asking. I never commented one way or another about the changing of the running order, just on a newbies impression of the tone of the replies. Well, back to Team Chesapeake where they seem to be more 'user-friendly' for newbies. Oh, and if it matters, I ran in the order I was drawn today. I agree that you take what you're given.
    Last edited by dinaperugini; 09-22-2013 at 10:03 PM.

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