so as you may recall we had to scratch our first derby (drew #17 dog) because of an incident with a barb wire fence (the fence won!). stitches were removed today and the vet gave us the all clear
i signed up for a test last week thinking that was the response we would get
couple weeks ago i posed a question to my training group. if i was the first dog to the line and i told you i had never run a trial and neither had my dog. would you allow me to drop back a few dogs to get the hang of it
responses varied (including from one who will be a judge at the very derby we will be at) most said probably not
well of course i jinxed myself. got drawn as first dog
what would you as a judge do in this situation? stick the script? drop back a few?
All the suggestions to let a pro run first so he can get to the Open sounds good. Reality is that all the pros are already at the Open. This means that the people with a derby dog and no place to go are sitting at the derby. They will oftentimes run early regardless what their drawn number is.
Is it ethical for a pro to volunteer to run out of order? The pro has to answer to clients, who might not be thrilled to find out their dogs had to run early so a newb had a better chance of beating their dog.
I do not think most pros think it is a disadvantage to run first at a derby. As mentioned previously, there is less drag back early. There is not a lot of strategy in running a derby. You just line your pup up and let 'em rip.
I have never heard anyone, client or gallery, complain that it was not ethical for a pro to run early. Their livelyhoods depend on success at what ever level they run.
Blake... I know it's your first derby and all that. Have you ever been to one as a spectator? I know you are young and gung-ho... I was once too. If you haven't ever watched any before, (even if you have) get there early. Get your dog aired out well and loosened up. Watch the test dog.
Then, take your time! Get your dog and WALK to the holding blinds and line. Make your dog think its just another set of marks. He'll know it isn't because he will hear your heart beating. But try to stay calm anyway and keep him focused. When, I mean if he breaks... Remember to say heel or no or whatever it takes to stop him. You are allowed controlled breaks in derbies. Like Jen said... Get him to focus on the memory bird. He will see the flyer.
After he gets the first bird, stay focused. You want to keep your whistle in your mouth and your eyes on your dog. Turn your back at your own risk. There is no time limit, so take your time when lining him upon the memory bird. Makes sure he is looking at it and not the flyer when you send him.
Again, it's just two marks... But your dog will feed off of you. If you are tighter than a tick, the dog will be too.
As for running order, who cares? If you are ready, it won't matter. Just go get them.
this thread really exploded more than i thought it would.
yes i have watched one as a spectator. but seeing as this my first time to step to any line be it HT or FT i dont really know what all goes on in those last 5-10 steps from the last holding blind to the line to calling for birds.
so if you are allowed a controlled break and he takes off and i say "heel" does that not count against you in the "no talking till they call your number" deal.
i have decided i will not make mention to anyone of the first trial deal till after we get put out/jam/place(ha) and just run my number.
we've been running singles for about a week (pre-injury) mostly walking singles with remote sends (and me throwing for consistency v.s. a winger) i find i can get 8-10 singles v.s. 3-4 with wingers in the daylight after work. my question is i think it was Lardy who says pre-trial he usually does all singles. but should i chance it and do one day of doubles just as a refresher? its been like 2 mondays since he's seen a derby double. like say singles today, doubles tues, singles, wed, singles thurs, then day off/travel fri?
i'm also thinking about doubling his food friday night and not feeding saturday morning (5am when i leave for trial at 10)? or would that just not be smart? he seems to do his best work on an empty stomach
Blake, I too had trouble with the "controlled break" concept in the beginning. Look at it this way, if you DONT say heel, no, here, etc and the dog goes on to pick up the bird, you are eliminated automatically AND you have introduced a bad, bad habit to your dog. If you DO call him back before the point of no return, sure, it will be noted and scored accordingly. But assuming your dog nails the marks and nobody else in the field does without the controlled break, you still win!
As far as your training schedule, (singles vs doubles) I will let the more experienced answer. But I will answer the food question. I would never double my dogs' meal. That looks like real trouble. It will not hurt him to skip breakfast. Maybe just give him a taste of kibble for routines sake and then feed him when he is done for the day. With any luck, that will be his supper time!
Blake, Bill gave you some good advice. In a controlled break its pretty much expected that you get control, so don't worry about the talking aspect. Get him back, refocused and wait for your number. You mention the last few steps. Reality is you have the opportunity to start building good habits now. The test starts at the truck, build a good routine, stay focused and the dog under control. While in your first test you won't have any real dogs to watch other than test dog, get in the habit of using the holding blinds to build a game plan and get prepared for the different situations that may occur and have a mental plan on what you will do if that occurs. For example, often running early something mechanical goes wrong. Bird boys throw wrong, wingers hang up, flyers get missed etc. Be prepared mentally for how you will handle this. Think of the little things, like where am i going to put my leash. I've seen new folks mess around figuring out where to put the leash and lose control of the dog right there at the last holding blind. Go into it with a "I can win this attitude" however don't be unrealistic on the outcome. Remember to have fun and this is a journey. I guarantee the dog will. Many in this thread have done this for over 20+ years, in Ed's case perhaps twice that, so don't let that dampen your having fun. Go run your dog, learn, train, and repeat.
At most derbies, there will be pros at the open who will run out of order later in the derby. However, there likely will be pros who will run by the derby to get the first series out of the way and then go to the open. There will also be some folks who want to run early in the derby to get it out of the way but not until there is a little scent on the ground so they will sandbag slightly and then show up at the derby and ask the marshal to fit them in.
Typically if you are dog 1, you have a very good chance of the marshal asking you to run further back. However, if you don't run first, you may run even further back. Still, there is no harm in asking if you want to watch a few. Most folks will be very helpful to the newcomer.
If you run first, though, don't sweat it. My very first field trial was a Q with no rotation. I was dog 1 and ran first all but the water blind and we did fine.
Speaking from the perspective of a newbie and someone who has marshaled several trials now (all stakes except the open, multiple times) there are plenty of instances where dog #1 doesn't run first in the first series. Sometimes if the derby is on Friday, they will start the open an hour later and instruct all pros and people running the open and the derby both to show up at the derby first. The marshal is then instructed to run those dogs first. Same thing will happen if the derby is the same start time as the Am. Many times dog #1 will end up running as dog 7 or 8. However, this generally applies only in the first series. When the second series starts, you usually end up running in order with the dogs that are there and work everyone else in as they filter in. Many times, it pays to run earlier (no dragback as others have mentioned, cooler temperatures, better sun position, etc) Regardless, the marshal controls the running order at the trial itself, not the judges. Run your dog when your number is called and try not to give a marshal much grief. It is one of the more difficult jobs at a trial. I recently started shooting fliers and would rather do that any day. Good luck to you and your dog!
the derby starts at 10am and the am starts at 8 so i assume they started the derby late to allow all the pros to come over and run then get back in time for callbacks at open.
i will add too, as a newbie volunteer to help out! A trial is a TON of work to put on and goes much more smoothly when people help. You're help will be much appreciated. It's a good way to get to know people too.
This is great advice! Not only do most clubs need and appreciate the help, but it's a great way for a newbie to learn. I marshalled several events before actually ever running my dog, and I learned a ton from just watching and listening. Also met a lot of people, who once they learned I was new, were there to offer a lot of hints, tips, advice and moral support!
This was just a passing point you made but it caught my eye: i'm also thinking about doubling his food friday night and not feeding saturday morning (5am when i leave for trial at 10)? or would that just not be smart? he seems to do his best work on an empty stomach
I would NOT double his food the night before, especially if that is not part of your usual routine. I would stick with your normal feeding regime, perhaps modifying the morning feeding to be a little lighter on competitive days.
To do a wholesale change of the dog's feeding schedule is going to create more stress if the dog isn't used to this.. Dogs thrive on routine. I would be extraordinarily careful about doubling any competitive labrador's foodshare at one time. Actually any lab, competing or not.
You're already going to be stressed out, which I firmly believe a dog picks up on. Don't add to it by altering the normal way you do things "on game day".
This was just a passing point you made but it caught my eye: i'm also thinking about doubling his food friday night and not feeding saturday morning (5am when i leave for trial at 10)? or would that just not be smart? he seems to do his best work on an empty stomach
I would NOT double his food the night before, especially if that is not part of your usual routine. I would stick with your normal feeding regime, perhaps modifying the morning feeding to be a little lighter on competitive days.
To do a wholesale change of the dog's feeding schedule is going to create more stress if the dog isn't used to this.. Dogs thrive on routine. I would be extraordinarily careful about doubling any competitive labrador's foodshare at one time. Actually any lab, competing or not.
You're already going to be stressed out, which I firmly believe a dog picks up on. Don't add to it by altering the normal way you do things "on game day".
If I had the clip board, and the OP asked me to let him run later, I would ask for a volunteer to run first. Mostly, I won't get one. Doesn't hurt to ask, though..
Likely, the OP will have to run first. Not bumping someone up with a later number. Unless they want to be bumped.
Then, just run in order for the dogs that are there. Fit the pros in as they show up.
One thing I have done recently. Put in premium that minor stakes are allowed to rotate.
That way, at least the nervous noob won't have to run first, every series.
Insofar as practicable dogs shall be run in the order of the draw, or in the order of the draw as rotated in stakes carrying championship points; provided that departures from the order of the draw are permitted:
(a) When in the opinion of the Judges or the Field Trail Committee such will result in a reasonable or desirable saving of time in the conduct of the trial, provided, however, that whenever decisions regard- ing a change in the running order will affect two or more stakes, the Field Trial Marshal may overrule the judges and/or the stake marshal and make the final decision as to such changes in the running order, if any, or — This subsection contemplates that the Field Trial Committee will be responsible for providing effective means of communication between and among the stakes so that decisions about departures from the order of the draw that have an impact on more than one stake can be made, and conflicts resolved, with proper attention to the priori- ties among stakes and to the overall needs of the trial. The authority of the Field Trial Committee to make the final decision on departures from the running order in one stake which may adversely impact another stake shall be exercised by the Field Trial Marshal.
(b) When in the opinion of the Judges such will avoid unfairness or prejudice to any competing dog resulting from an event which has occurred in the particular stake.
Please let me run first, that way if I'm out; I can leave or maybe even go to one of those places (I think they call restaurants), btw series; and not get suckered into starting the day throwing birds, shooting birds, moving things around etc. which always seems to happen regardless of what number I get drawn, or where I'm running
Based on the information posted by Bill Davis in posts 63 and 64 ( the rules regarding the running order/draw), If both the OP and I are at the Derby, and we have no other place to be, I can no more volunteer to run my dog #4 ahead of dog #3,2, and 1 than I can to run my dog # 29.......
just and update. test ran a little late because of downpour the night before we had to relocate and find new grounds. ended up having to run first and second series back to back. small hunt on flyer. medium sized hunt on memory. inital line was to gunner then swung left about 20 yards out to bird. invited to run second series "super" single. got a no bird. came back up and ran it large hunt. got called back to the third that started on sunday. broke on the go bird. it was thrown from the point towards the main shore on side of hill. would of picked him up normally but called him back since we have the history of no-go. i still want to keep his confidence up. released him of course he didnt mark it well because of the break. hunted 2-3 minutes finally put him on the bird because he was getting back in the water behind the gun and i saw him look over at that memory mark and just thought he was going to switch.
the judge that i knew said afterwards let your dog hunt your not training your trialing. i said yea i was just nervous about a switch and besides i shouldnt of even sent him on the go-bird.
all in all my goal was for him not to return to the flyer station in the first and to make it past first so i was happy.
in other news i was stuck in some of the thickest oklahoma red clay for an hour and half 15 mins before the test was supposed to start (prior to me finding out it was delayed). the grounds changed and i was still following EE directions. luckily they were able to get a tractor to pull me out. then my engine blew rod/crankshaft/piston about 30 mins after i left yesterday and had to have one of my training buddies take me into OKC to get a UHaul car dolly (where they raped me on the price) then go back to my car. load it up and make the 7 hour trip back. getting it off the dolly was even more fun. it took an extension cord (didnt have chain or straps) wrapped around my back bumper and my brother in law pulling it off with his truck.
the 4runner is kaput. luckily that means im getting a truck this afternoon and hopefully a dog box in next year or so (still waiting to let the wife know on that one)
Wow!!!
what a story!
What a weekend!
Made it to the 3rd series in your first trial and are getting a truck and a box!!!
you are so hooked. your life is forever changed!
yes i did. i thought when i got stuck in the mud i was gonna miss out (as i said earlier i became excited about #1 thinking that i would get less flier scent). but the test was delayed till noon because having to find new grounds after the downpour at that point (then eventually again till 2:30 because of lack of an ATV)
and yes bill i'm beginning to think that too. although my last name is Mhoon pronounced "moon". common mistake. silly hungarian ancestors. the a at the end is my first initial
this weekend i'll be rolling to the double derby in my new tacoma i purchased this afternoon. but till then i see some "refresher" courses in OB in our future. he was a maniac till he stepped on the mat. then it was just another setup.
prolly will also work on some short in your face marks to get that break taken care of.
for the double derby this weekend got dead last at one and #7 on the other
Blake, I'm a little worried about you. You seem to be involved in more than your fair share of accidents... Some even involve your pooch. I wonder if your are somehow related to the Mayhem guy from the Allstate commercials? It sort of has a nice ring to it... Blake "Mayhem" Mhoon;.-)
Once you hit enter on EE to enter your dog, you no longer are a newbie. You should have understood being #1 is always a possibility. Sure, for test logistics Pros get shuffled around to keep dogs running, rarely is dog #1 moved back. Someone needs to start the test. If multiple dog and stake handlers are not moved around, you spend 2 hrs in the rain waiting for two dogs to close a series, the help, the judges and the other handlers do not appreciate this.
I have an issue where the #1 dog calls ahead and says they have car problems when I am #2. As #2 I am on time and sitting in the holding blind ready to run. I know its highly likely they are late because ..... it was intentional ???. I walk up to each test with a "let's do this" attitude, #1, #12 or #45, move me around for whomever, whatever works for the test. The test has to start sometime, negotiating out of the number one spot would be looked down on, "click enter" just run it, be ready for drawing #1, and 2 and 3.
Well Antall looks like a popular one. Followed closely by Acs or Ats. Then it drops quite a ways down to Ambrus... These are on a popularity list... Maybe yours is more unique?
No matter what, it pretty neat that your family has kept the tradition alive for 5 generations. In my family, the first son has had the same initials every generation on my dads side going all the way back to when the lived in Wales in the 1700's. my grandmother was a genealogy buff and traced it all the way back. Some of the names changed over the years... But the initials have always been the same for that first son. I wasn't about to break the string.
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