The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 29

Thread: Pattern Blind/Cold Blind TRANSITION

  1. #1
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    5,211

    Default Pattern Blind/Cold Blind TRANSITION

    Pattern Blind/Cold Blind TRANSITION

    Questions pop up fairly often about issues during this period. Lately I've seen and received enough to warrant some clarity on its central aspects. Since we're not all seasoned veteran trainers here it might be valuable to discuss this topic.

    At a point when our dogs have enough basic skills we begin running what are commonly called “pattern blinds”; pre-identified, or visually marked destinations that are not marked falls. These exercises help the trainer to introduce some basic functions to a developing dog that will assist in running real blinds, AKA “cold blinds”. There is often some confusion about the differences between them, and how to transition from one to the other.

    By including force to pile, AKA ‘FTP’, in our force fetch program we educate our dogs not only to go when sent, but to perform all the essentials of the fully-trained retrieve. “Go, fetch, come” are critically important, and the force fetch course sets this function up in a well-structured and efficient form including ‘finish’; the actual coming to heel to sit and deliver on command.

    Once those essential functions are intact we begin to stretch the distance to the pile, and ad the elements of force en route, force from the front sit position/Back cast, etc. As all that develops together it continues to around 100 yards, and other piles can be identified in a ‘pattern’. That is customarily 3 piles 90 degrees apart in what is known as a 3-leg pattern, from which came the name “pattern blind”. They are not cold blinds because the dog is taught the destinations ahead of time.

    The questions largely revolve around the transition from these known destinations (piles/pattern blinds) to real blinds – ‘cold blinds’. One such question commonly asked is when to begin this transition. When your dog will do the following – not just sometimes, not just pretty well, but with great reliability and confidence:

    1. Obey fundamental obedience commands, such as heel, sit, here, and will turn right and left at the heel position.
    2. Is competent and polished in all phases of force fetch, up to and including FTP.
    3. Has been thoroughly educated to en route forcing.

    During this same period of time most programs guide the trainer to be working on basic handling skills so the pattern blinds progress as handling skills develop. I recommend starting pattern blinds short, and gradually teach more of them in new places at only slightly longer distances as long as the dog is running them efficiently and with confidence. But, having patiently and thoroughly taught these essential functions, and having extended the length of your PBs to around 100 yards, all that should keep you from advancing to cold blinds is the completion of Land T work. Weather permitting, it would also be appropriate to have finished water force & swim-by.

    The actual transition is a topic of its own.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  2. #2
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Mohawk Valley
    Posts
    8,679

    Default

    I've posted my pattern field process numerous times. Interesting that this transition seems to generate frequent threads on boards. There are dozens on RTF alone. One of the questions that I get asked a lot is "do you really run such long blinds on the pattern field?" Yes I do. I think this varies from your process Evan although from what I can see that may be about the only difference. I once broke down each day but can't seem to find it now. In essence during the teaching of the pattern it goes somewhat like this.

    Day 1 - First leg. Put 5-8 bumpers at destination, back dog up 30 or so yards, send him to pile. Backup to 60 send him. Handle as necessary. Backup to 80, send him etc. Should typically get to the long distance by end of session

    Day 2 - 3 bumpers at leg 1, 5-8 leg 2. Teach leg 2, run leg 1

    Day 3 - 2 Bumpers at legs 1/2. After teaching leg 3 run the other two legs

    Day 4 - Repeat process to teach leg 4, run other legs

    Days 5-10 2 bumpers at each leg, randomly run the other legs, handing as necessary.

    I like running the longer legs because it results in more handling opportunities and it gets the dogs thinking go long right from the start.

    /Paul



    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    I typically do a session every day with the dog. This is a teaching drill where skills are taught through repetition. These dogs can handle at least one session a day and in my experience they make the most progress by consistent sessions daily for 7-10 days. If by day 10 I'm seeing a 80% success rate in the handling portion and good response to the back command with periodic force I move to pattern field where we take the taught skills and put them into a controlled field situation.

    My pattern fields is flat, short grass and mostly featureless. The blinds have good separation and vary in length. (see diagram) I teach 1 leg each day, and repeat the other legs as I go along. By day 4 the dog is picking up 2 bumpers at each leg. They are rough at first, but like T pattern this is teaching. Not a lot of corrections for casting mistakes, use attrition. Don't worry if they line them, again this is about working with you has a handler and taking the casts. Again I run these for 7-10 days. Typically after this the dog is working with me well enough to move to true cold blinds, which in line with the program does not have a lot of casting corrections, but mostly attrition.




    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Gloucester,Va
    Posts
    1,295

    Default

    Why do some trainers skip Pattern Blinds!!??
    Dawgs are like Savings Accounts-
    You only get out of 'em what you put into 'em.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,010

    Default

    I do about like Paul but with only 3 legs and about 150 yrds gets me what I need.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Benton, AR
    Posts
    790

    Default

    when i did mine a couple months ago i did alot like you paul. i only had 3 legs though. left leg was 275, right was 250, and middle was 325. talk about a wore out dog. but i do think it makes a difference to stretch them out so they can get used to carrying a line for awhile.


    after days 5-10 i started the PB with diversions altogether prolly took a good 3-4 weeks.


    question do you find it useful to run pattern blinds on water? on land casts and lines are usually good to great with my dog. in water casting is not so great. especially at distances of more than 100 or so yards

  6. #6
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Mohawk Valley
    Posts
    8,679

    Default

    Well, I most of the time don't run pattern blinds like this on water. It sometimes depends on the time of year, temperature concerns, but for the most part i'll get the dog doing pattern field, typically after a couple of weeks move to simple cold land blinds and get them used to running on land. I like pattern blinds because not only is it a good transition from T work, it also re-build momentum a dog may have lost on the T field. Some dogs get a bad attitude on T field and this helps get them out of that "funk." Once the light bulb goes off on land regarding understanding cold blinds, I'll go do water force, water T, swimby on the pond and start running cold blinds on water. You do have to look at the conditioning of the dog and adjust the length and repetition on patter field. I often gets dogs in before hunting season for "tune up" and conditioning so may have to adjust while they lose their "summer fat."

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  7. #7
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    7,687

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post
    Why do some trainers skip Pattern Blinds!!??
    I don't do pattern blinds. I've decided that my time is better spent on easyish multiple cold blinds. It always seemed like there was a transition to cold blinds whether they had had pattern blinds or not. Also, it seemed easier, less of a fight, to get them past shorter old blinds when sending for longer blinds.

    YMMV
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  8. #8
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,031

    Default

    I start 3 stake then go to 5, start on land (straight to the stake, then casting drills off of the stake), I want the fight of get pass the stakes, set them up for poison birds etc. later. We do move the stake drills to water, but usually in a place where a dog can learn proper water & land entries and exits, 1 (take mostly land hit little water), 2 (take land hit water, take point, hit water), 3 (take all water swim channel btw the land), 4 (hit large corner of water take big land, then hit little water), then 5 the hardest, after you've done all that water (run edge of the pond and take all land). Basically the stakes let them know where they're going so we can focus on the proper way to get there.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 09-27-2013 at 12:59 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
    "I train dogs, Not papers"

    GMRH HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast) Rip. July-2014
    MHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
    HR Storm.. the Pup (Beginning Upland & Waterfowl Enthusiast)

  9. #9
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    5,211

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post
    Why do some trainers skip Pattern Blinds!!??
    A couple reasons. One is simply that many pros (and some amateurs) find themselves constantly seeking to save time with a load of dogs. But when you have 20-30, or more years of experience you can get around the use of time spent on patterns, and read your dog's way along. I don't care for it personally, but it's viable. It's certainly not because there is nothing to gain from a modest number of pattern blinds. I progress in a very similar manner to /Paul.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  10. #10
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Galesburg, IL
    Posts
    865

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I don't do pattern blinds. I've decided that my time is better spent on easyish multiple cold blinds. It always seemed like there was a transition to cold blinds whether they had had pattern blinds or not. Also, it seemed easier, less of a fight, to get them past shorter old blinds when sending for longer blinds.

    YMMV
    Ditto what Howard said.

    Plus, the 1st couple dogs that I tried running pattern blinds with thought it was ok to go back to old falls, after I ran pattern blinds.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •