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Thread: Sloppy sit on whistle

  1. #11
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tide pond View Post
    Seems to get worse the further away she is. Thanks in advance
    The answer to your question is contained in this statement. You don't need to add bunch of pressure to get this corrected. Work on leash with a retrieve as a reward. Do it up close at first then move her away from you. When she sits right, she gets the bumper, otherwise no reward. This doesn't have to be in a pile work setting. You can fake a throw and get her to move away from you then toot the whistle and either reward or not based on the response. Also look CLOSELY at the rest of this dog's life and I'll be you are tolerating a crooked sit in other places, when it's not critical. So.. what does sit mean? sit means feet square under you, mouth closed (no noise), eyes on me! That's the only thing that get rewarded. Helps if you started this from the beginning but since you didn't, you can correct it now. It'll take time but it will work if you clean up your training and be consistent. More pressure may cause all kinds of other issues from lack of eye contact (avoidance) to laying down to who knows what. Do some close distance positive work on it and see if you can't change her overall habit from there.

    Once she's doing it right and I mean REALLY, consistently right, give a meaningful correction if she gets lazy. Don't nag nag nag with come in whistles and nicks.

    Just my take, for what it's worth (which is exactly what you paid).
    Darrin Greene

  2. #12
    Senior Member Duckquilizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    It is in Disc 5-Bonus
    Can I name it? I've got a couple good names...

    T.N.T. Total Nutt Training and Nuttworks
    Kendall Layne

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  3. #13
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Do what you're happy with. But as I give seminars all over the country the "toot-toot-toot"/come-in to straighten up" treatment is incredibly common, and incredibly ineffective. As I train with folks who do it I'm never surprised to see it because they do it all the time. They need to do it all the time because it generally only fixes the problem in the moment...this time. Tomorrow the dog will do the same thing. I'm with Mitty. We had a long discussion on crooked sit early this year, or late last year. I wrote out my treatment at that time. It's pretty long for a forum post, but if you care to email me I'll write it up for you. rushcreekpress@aol.com

    Evan
    I would like to read your write up, email sent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    It is in Disc 5-Bonus
    Are you talking about BJGatley's suggestion? This is on the TRT bonus disk?

    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    The answer to your question is contained in this statement. You don't need to add bunch of pressure to get this corrected. Work on leash with a retrieve as a reward. Do it up close at first then move her away from you. When she sits right, she gets the bumper, otherwise no reward. This doesn't have to be in a pile work setting. You can fake a throw and get her to move away from you then toot the whistle and either reward or not based on the response. Also look CLOSELY at the rest of this dog's life and I'll be you are tolerating a crooked sit in other places, when it's not critical. So.. what does sit mean? sit means feet square under you, mouth closed (no noise), eyes on me! That's the only thing that get rewarded. Helps if you started this from the beginning but since you didn't, you can correct it now. It'll take time but it will work if you clean up your training and be consistent. More pressure may cause all kinds of other issues from lack of eye contact (avoidance) to laying down to who knows what. Do some close distance positive work on it and see if you can't change her overall habit from there.

    Once she's doing it right and I mean REALLY, consistently right, give a meaningful correction if she gets lazy. Don't nag nag nag with come in whistles and nicks.

    Just my take, for what it's worth (which is exactly what you paid).
    I'm going to try something like your suggestion.

    Your point about getting lax with the sit standard is good, but I am not sure I totally understand it. I do not want my dog to spin around and face me in all contexts, after I give the "sit" command. I also do not always want her making eye contact with me most of the time. When she is at my side she is to be looking and facing out towards the field, for example, looking for birds.

    I know that my inconsistent expectations for "sit" in the house contributes to loopy sits on blinds---I say sit to get her out of my way at home for example, but then get distracted and don't notice if she actually sat. So I am interested in using "sit" consistently to get a square sit on blinds...but I don't see that this standard of requiring the dog to always face me and make eye contact when I command sit is really what I want.
    Last edited by mitty; 10-04-2013 at 12:04 PM. Reason: spelling
    Renee P

  4. #14
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post

    I'm going to try something like your suggestion.

    Your point about getting lax with the sit standard is good, but I am not sure I totally understand it. I do not want my dog to spin around and face me in all contexts, after I give the "sit" command. I also do not always want her making eye contact with me most of the time. When she is at my side she is to be looking and facing out towards the field, for example, looking for birds.

    I know that my inconsistent expectations for "sit" in the house contributes to loopy sits on blinds---I say sit to get her out of my way at home for example, but then get distracted and don't notice if she actually sat. So I am interested in using "sit" consistently to get a square sit on blinds...but I don't see that this standard of requiring the dog to always face me and make eye contact when I command sit is really what I want.
    What I suggested won't suddenly mean the dog violates heel to jump in front of you and sit facing you Renee. You do enough heeling and sitting that in that context they have no problem facing forward. I've never seen one even try that, in fact.

    There are some other scenarios like a remote sit or focusing on an object where the dog looks elsewhere but I believe it's good practice to teach them to turn around and look at your face when they are away from you in the field (or elsewhere).

    As with most things, I learned this from someone much wiser and more experienced than myself
    Darrin Greene

  5. #15
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    This is the beginning of work with a very sensitive pup who had a very lazy sit when we started. She's got it figured out now. In this vid she was very successful and got paid every time. That wasn't so for every session. This was pre-force fetch or any kind of pile work but I have seen similar things done with more advanced dogs to solve the OP problem.

    As I mentioned this is to TEACH the behavior. We'll correct for non-compliance later, but we want to dog to understand what the correct behavior is and have habituated it substantially before pressure is applied.

    I was told by a very accomplished FT trainer (think several dozen FC's) that sitting should be an opportunity for the dog to work with you, as opposed to a punishment. In that vein I decided to start with reward based methods to habituate the behavior before I put pressure on it.

    May be right or wrong but I don't see how it can hurt.

    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 10-04-2013 at 12:39 PM.
    Darrin Greene

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    Something I did was sit my pup 10 yards from me. Face her then I would walk 45 degrees around her blow the sit whistle and nick. She would turn and face me. I would do this all the way around both directions. I think it made her learn to face me every time I blow the sit whistle. So the sit whistle means sit and face me!

  7. #17
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Disc 5 of TRT. Cute Layne.
    Wayne Nutt
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    Disc 5 of TRT. Cute Layne.
    Sorry Wayne! Had too pull a little funny.
    Kendall Layne

    HR(2xHRCH) Ashland's Big Black Ruby to Go SH
    Dorie's Lady of the Lake(1K bird club)

    Never play leap frog with a unicorn.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    I've replied to several of you who have emailed. I may have neglected to attach the link for the video clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyncYv8LFbQ That should help.

    Evan
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  10. #20
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Thanks, Darrin. Good visual aid.

    I sort of think my dog's crooked sit is partly due to the dog wanting to sit quickly. Toot, toot-nick worked great to get rid of the loopy sit, but now she plunks her butt down before she turns around and looks at me over her shoulder.

    Evan, the video link doesn't work---it wants a login.
    Last edited by mitty; 10-04-2013 at 01:17 PM.
    Renee P

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