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Thread: Sloppy sit on whistle

  1. #51
    Senior Member BJGatley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathewrodriguez View Post
    When a dog turns around, the dog needs to square up to the handler, not simply turn around. What's described early teaches the dog exactly what's expected.
    I'm sorry but I disagree with your posts...You think too much of a human.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathewrodriguez View Post
    When a dog turns around, the dog needs to square up to the handler, not simply turn around. What's described early teaches the dog exactly what's expected.
    I agree with this, and a number of other points you've made. It's an interesting dichotomy. On one hand your ideas conform to Carr teachings that assert "There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are." I have long subscribed to that logic.

    On the other hand, the use of terms like "perfect" in relation to dog is at best counterintuitive. Dogs don't become perfect. They become reliable and stable, but will require ongoing maintenance for what are almost entirely man made skills.

    There have been many good points made here, like Howard's idea about starting with a "here cast". Nice idea. I can't relate to the need to stand motionless while teaching basic casting with 3-handed casting, and I realize this was not one of your points. But I've always believed one of the best ways to build stability and focus in a young, developing handling dog is to train them from the start to cast only when given a cast, and not to pre-cast on their own as a result of any motion from the handler. Dogs so inclined will tend to cast less accurately than those that actually watch for the cast given. Such habits are best built from the start.

    All that said, Matt, I join with you in continually working toward accuracy, while maintaining balance so as not to rob the dog of the joy in his work. That's the artful part of all this.

    Evan
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  3. #53
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    I haven't accomplished a lot...yet I hope!

    But...I know of at least one prominent and very successful FT pro who teaches dogs to cast in response to body movement. At 300 or 400 yards, in bad lighting, a dog might not see the handler's arms. In those scenarios some of us count on dog to understand what direction it should go in response to the handler's motion, even if they can't see the arms.

    Matt, you are claiming that the dog can't learn to turn around, and give the handler a square sit in response to a fake-out. How many dogs did you try this on?
    Renee P

  4. #54
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I haven't accomplished a lot...yet I hope!

    But...I know of at least one prominent and very successful FT pro who teaches dogs to cast in response to body movement. At 300 or 400 yards, in bad lighting, a dog might not see the handler's arms. In those scenarios some of us count on dog to understand what direction it should go in response to the handler's motion, even if they can't see the arms.

    Matt, you are claiming that the dog can't learn to turn around, and give the handler a square sit in response to a fake-out. How many dogs did you try this on?
    Every good handler I've seen uses lateral movement in influence course change in strategic situations. It aids in proper rotation, and to accentuate a course change into the wind, off of shoreline into water, off points, and in other circumstances where course change is made difficult by extenuating factors. Good point, Mitty.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


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  5. #55
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    where's the dead horse being beat emoticon?
    Darrin Greene

  6. #56
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    where's the dead horse being beat emoticon?
    You're gonna have to be more specific as this thread has gone all over the place.

    One trainer's dead horse may be this new trainer's "a-hah"! moment!

    Last edited by mitty; 10-08-2013 at 12:33 PM.
    Renee P

  7. #57
    Member mathewrodriguez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post

    On the other hand, the use of terms like "perfect" in relation to dog is at best counter intuitive. Dogs don't become perfect. They become reliable and stable, but will require ongoing maintenance for what are almost entirely man made skills.
    I understand your point on "perfect"... "high standard" is probably a better term, but the standard of sit IMO should be exact. I feel "Teaching" a dog a definitive sit and being square to the handler when in a remote sit will produce more consistent and accurate casts. The process I described earlier is simple to teach and for the dog to understand. There is little room for confusion.

    And, there are times when the handler moves. Follow-up blinds. There were a couple at last year's national alone. One in particular that nearly all the handlers ran-up to and worked off the right side of the mound as opposed to the center, and the mound was approx. 25 yards from the line. In hunting scenarios, we constantly moves down levees and around cover to get a better vantage points of the dogs after they leave the blind/line. Dogs take a more accurate cast when they squared-up to the handler.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I haven't accomplished a lot...yet I hope!
    But...I know of at least one prominent and very successful FT pro who teaches dogs to cast in response to body movement. At 300 or 400 yards, in bad lighting, a dog might not see the handler's arms. In those scenarios some of us count on dog to understand what direction it should go in response to the handler's motion, even if they can't see the arms.
    Matt, you are claiming that the dog can't learn to turn around, and give the handler a square sit in response to a fake-out. How many dogs did you try this on?
    Precisely… and a dog that is quartered to the handler at 300 or 400 yards, in bad lighting… is much less likely to take an accurate cast.

    I feel that teaching the dog a high standard on sit from the get go is easier on a dog (and the trainer) than demanding higher standards later on as the dog advances. Dogs seem to thrive on consistency. I firmly believe and stand by my point that a dog should SIT, "to a high standard" before going through basics. Particularly if the trainer is an amateur. Put the dog in the best scenario you can for learning and understanding rather than rushing through and having to use special methods for a proper SIT later on.

    Further, I think style is diminished more by lack of clear understanding than setting standards. I am not against tossing a bumper to the dog to build up excitement and encouragement when introducing the dog to the concept of sitting on a whistle after being sent, but this it does not TEACH the dog to sit squarely to the handler.
    Last edited by mathewrodriguez; 10-08-2013 at 02:36 PM.
    Matt Rodriguez

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  8. #58
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    Thanks, BJ . I haven't been on here in a bit so I didn't see your response. Don't much mind the hijacking of the thread as there have been some good suggestions.She is doing great and I have already made some progress on the loopy sit. Had to stop doing drills in the back yard as a ripening fig tree has got her attention.

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