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behavioral traits

5K views 34 replies 18 participants last post by  Hunt'EmUp 
#1 ·
Which traits do you consider to be genetically transferred ? Steve S
 
#2 ·
Not sure if these are what you're looking for in behavioral traits, but I'm on the 9th or 10th generation of Chesapeakes descended from the first one I got in 1981. Most of them bare their teeth and "smile" at you, like my first CBR. I didn't get serious about breeding until about 10 or 12 years ago, (never saw a trained retriever before then!) all the ones I've raised that have run HTs have had uncanny marking ability evident as young pups, and very good eyesight. And as they age, they all seem to go deaf at about 10, even ones that weren't shot over much.
 
#3 ·
Not sure if these are what you're looking for in behavioral traits, but I'm on the 9th or 10th generation of Chesapeakes descended from the first one I got in 1981. Most of them bare their teeth and "smile" at you, like my first CBR. I didn't get serious about breeding until about 10 or 12 years ago, (never saw a trained retriever before then!) all the ones I've raised that have run HTs have had uncanny marking ability evident as young pups, and very good eyesight. And as they age, they all seem to go deaf at about 10, even ones that weren't shot over much.
I would consider that one .... I believe there are a lot more behaviors that we train out of them that are passed from generation to generation...the so called natural dog instead of the trained dog....Steve S
 
#4 ·
When we lived in CA, Eloise Heller Cherry's dogs dominated the bloodlines. I remember one trait that I have seen out of Cub's Tule Tiger offspring (CBR) where when a dog was waiting on the line and the handler had called for the birds, the dog would be holding up one paw in excitement. I have since seen the same behavior in other Chessies, but not every one so I conclude it is probably somewhat genetic.
 
#5 ·
I don't breed dogs... but once maybe 30 years ago we allowed our male to breed someone else's dog, took a puppy. Darn if both dad and daughter didn't casually cross their front paws when they were laying down. Had the identical posture.
 
#6 ·
One of the funnier things I've noticed. Years ago I trained a number of dogs sired by Pachanga Magnum Force. They all shared the trait that if you put them in a Vari-Kennel in the back of a truck, they would tip it over if it wasn't anchored in place. Few other dogs have done this.

I suspect it was a matter of standing and leaning on the side of the crate vs lying down. Still interesting that it was so dependent on breeding.
 
#7 ·
What about such things as some dogs run straight while others are big cheaters....water attitude...vocalizing...I think we all agree that the ability to mark is related to genetics....can't we ? Steve S
 
#8 ·
What about such things as some dogs run straight while others are big cheaters....water attitude...vocalizing...I think we all agree that the ability to mark is related to genetics....can't we ? Steve S
I think in my own experience that FT bred dogs tend to run straight or straighter than non FT dogs. NON ft dogs often break down (and I'm talking on go get um marks) sooner But I also believe it has to do with focus, and drive,,,something ft dogs usually often possess due to breeding.
I believe Marking is composed of some of the same material,,including a high level of intelligence,because there are a lot of dogs with good eyes that can't mark. I do not follow the common belief that dogs mark well because of superior eye sight. I believe good eye sight is important but many more traits come together to make a dog a naturally good marker. So in a nut shell every thing is genetic to a large degree,,,we shape the material they have,,good or bad to the best that those components are manifested in the animal.

Some dogs will always suck at field work no matter who trains them and some will excel beyond average without the best training. That's genetic.
Pete
 
#15 ·
... snip... So in a nut shell every thing is genetic to a large degree,,,we shape the material they have,,good or bad to the best that those components are manifested in the animal.

Some dogs will always suck at field work no matter who trains them and some will excel beyond average without the best training. That's genetic.

Pete
I agree with Pete completely. So much depends on nature, we can only nurture what they are born with.
 
#9 ·
In my very limited experience, water attitude seems to be largely genetic. Seems the pups of these water obsessed dogs don't need to be *introduced* to water. They just vault on in the first time they encounter it.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I believe this to be true. My last dog was exposed to water for the first time at about four months old (got him in the winter). Tossed a stick from shore and he charged in full speed. He was initially shocked when the water became deep. 3-4 awkward strokes and then he swam calmly the rest of the way. After that you couldn't keep him out of the water.

He always exploded into the water .... just like his father!
 
#11 ·
Lately, I've been wondering if the "Biddability" trait is genetic. The dog who loves to be a team player, make eye contact and seems to want to do what's requested of him/her.

There is variation of this in every litter and probably connects with the dominance ladder, but I wonder if some litters are generally more biddable than others due to their parents or grandparents.
 
#12 ·
Both of my FT bred labs just leapt in the water and took to it as naturally as ducks. No introduction, no problems. That however does not seem related to "cheating" water. The older one never cheated because once he was about 2.5 and he automatically took the straightest line every time to the bird. The younger one is not that driven, and will zig zag cover or puddles if allowed, (NOT!). The Chessie actually had to have "swimming lessons" from the older dog. He was just a little hesitant, didn't want to get deep enough to paddle. After about an hour of playing with the older dog he was fine. Now he is crazy about water and would rather stay in than run on land. So I don't know, do these reactions indicate breed, particular bloodlines, or just the way they were raised? And Jennifer, if you can find that biddability gene, I would pay a lot to clone it!:D
 
#13 ·
Both of my FT bred labs just leapt in the water and took to it as naturally as ducks. No introduction, no problems. That however does not seem related to "cheating" water. The older one never cheated because once he was about 2.5 and he automatically took the straightest line every time to the bird. The younger one is not that driven, and will zig zag cover or puddles if allowed, (NOT!). The Chessie actually had to have "swimming lessons" from the older dog. He was just a little hesitant, didn't want to get deep enough to paddle. After about an hour of playing with the older dog he was fine. Now he is crazy about water and would rather stay in than run on land. So I don't know, do these reactions indicate breed, particular bloodlines, or just the way they were raised? And Jennifer, if you can find that biddability gene, I would pay a lot to clone it!:D

Two very important points...As pointed out earlier , we train what genetics put in the dog....If biddable easier to train out some of the less desirable behaviors...Steve S
 
#14 ·
I think a lot of undesirable stuff we train out of them is genetic, such as vocalizing/excessive noise. One unfortunate thing you see in a lot of Chesapeakes, especially those bred to be a more "one size fits all" breed like Labs, is submissive urination into adulthood. I'm not talking about the excited puppy piddling that a lot of dogs of all breeds do and grow out of, but the type that cower and squirt pee if you so much as raise your voice at them. IME this type can easily become fear biters and lack ability to deal with any kind of pressure, so they're virtually untrainable. Sadly many of these do win in the show ring and get bred (sometimes often). Another heritable trait is a hyperactive personality that makes a dog impossible to live with and hard to keep in a kennel; the type of dog that is never still so it's kenneled, but even there continues to pace back and forth and spread its feces all over the pen. I've never had one, but heard from far too many people that it's genetic. Incidently, I cringe when I hear novices describe their dogs as firebreathers. More often than not, their "firebreather" is a hyperactive, neurotic dog that has no training and is likely untrainable.
 
#16 ·
To follow up on Pete and Howard, good training is very-very important in maximizing a dogs potential, but the potential is all genetics. I see so many little things that my dogs do through generations going back to Pat Denardo's Vinny. My dogs out of that line all have the same tight, spinning-jumpy hunt pattern when they are in the AOF, they sit the same way with front legs slightly spread out, they have the same high jumping water entry, many weird little traits that come natural, and some crucial to FT success, including exceptional marking ability and straight line momentum.
 
#19 ·
Since we do not do a lot of line breeding like many years ago and especially like other breeds, I believe we just except bad traits(less desirable actions) and try to train them out when in reality we could help ourselves by breeding some of the less desirable out of the pool...OR.. at least giving others the options of different issues to deal with ...such as the hyper activity in some dogs and no off switch vs the gentleman's gun dog type....I had a discussion with a person last week and they made the decision not to keep a female for breeding based on her intense desire to cheat water on the way to and from a simple mark....Do you believe this is a genetic issue to be passed on to her off spring or not ...? Don't bring the stud into the mix ...only her ...Steve S
 
#20 ·
they made the decision not to keep a female for breeding based on her intense desire to cheat water on the way to and from a simple mark....Do you believe this is a genetic issue to be passed on to her off spring or not
Yes, either as a water cheat issue or as a lack of trainability issue, or both.
 
#21 ·
Seems like it's really tricky to determine what is and is not genetic, or primarily genetic. If you work with your own line for example, and they are ALL outstanding markers, can you be sure that it's actually the dog, or maybe something you do or don't do with your pups, or in training, or components of both maybe.

I think speed of maturity (or maturity level by age) is genetic and can influence how you think a dog marks or does other things before you get into "training" something in or out of them. Wouldn't that complicate evaluating some of the other things from a genetic or environment standpoint?

Someone above also brought up a good point in that the pup's position in the litter and the puppy experience before you get them has a huge influence as well.

I'd think sitting with crossed front legs is something genetic too, except that all of my dogs do that and they're not related, heck one's a little yappy dog, so maybe it's just comfortable?

It's an interesting question for sure.

There was a post awhile back about the genetics of marking, and some discussion about marking itself not being genetic, but that many of the traits that go into marking (from great to poor) are most certainly genetic - eyesight for example.
 
#24 ·
Seems like it's really tricky to determine what is and is not genetic, or primarily genetic. If you work with your own line for example, and they are ALL outstanding markers, can you be sure that it's actually the dog, or maybe something you do or don't do with your pups, or in training, or components of both maybe.

I think speed of maturity (or maturity level by age) is genetic and can influence how you think a dog marks or does other things before you get into "training" something in or out of them. Wouldn't that complicate evaluating some of the other things from a genetic or environment standpoint?

Someone above also brought up a good point in that the pup's position in the litter and the puppy experience before you get them has a huge influence as well.

I'd think sitting with crossed front legs is something genetic too, except that all of my dogs do that and they're not related, heck one's a little yappy dog, so maybe it's just comfortable?

It's an interesting question for sure.

There was a post awhile back about the genetics of marking, and some discussion about marking itself not being genetic, but that many of the traits that go into marking (from great to poor) are most certainly genetic - eyesight for example.
Wish I had seen that thread. I believe the great markers are inherently great markers. I believe there a many intangibles that go into being a great marker, and excellent eyesight is just one component. I can't pretend to understand all that is involved, and I certainly believe marking can be improved through good training, but I have witnessed with my own eyes certain dogs in the same program as others, that just seem to run right to where the bird was thrown and start looking for it. They do it day in and day out, you pretty quickly just expect those dogs to run out and get that bird no matter how hard it is.
 
#22 ·
Mom and all the pups smile, never seen it in labs before, must be a dominate trait. Mom has a great vertical leap, she flat footed jumps above my head, her two of the pups already @ 10mt jump into the second story of the dog truck without any assistance.
 
#23 ·
There was a post awhile back about the genetics of marking, and some discussion about marking itself not being genetic, but that many of the traits that go into marking (from great to poor) are most certainly genetic - eyesight for example.
I hope I expressed my opinion on the other thread. I am positive that "marking" is genetic. I'd say they all have some but only a few have lots. It is improved with training but like I said above, "So much depends on nature, we can only nurture what they are born with."









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#25 ·
To clarify - not that great marking isn't largely genetic, but that great marking involves more than one genetic trait - there's not a great marking gene. The question was about what are the traits that go into great marking and are they genetic or not.
 
#26 ·


"Happiness" is passed from one generation to the next IMHO (based on my mother / daughter team pictured here).
 
#30 ·
this thread is insightful. since i have never had a "great marker" i am pleased to know that:
1. there is a chance i may be a decent trainer.
2. it is confirmed that i suck at puppy pickin'!;-)
 
#31 ·
this thread is insightful. since i have never had a "great marker" i am pleased to know that:
1. there is a chance i may be a decent trainer.
2. it is confirmed that i suck at puppy pickin'!;-)



Most of us are in the same boat ,up the creek without a paddle.... I do believe that a lot of dogs make FC, Master hunter and a few have made NFC's with mediocre abilities....Very few are great...They have their day in the sun but not often... Steve S
 
#33 ·
There's an interesting article on heritability of performance traits of good race horses in the most recent Blood-Horse magazine, but unlike the AKC the registry for race horses, the Jockey Club, keeps and regularly publishes really good statistics, like leading sires by money won, leading first-crop sire, leading broodmare sire, leading sires by percent of winners from runners, etc. Stallions that produce precocious offspring that win as 2 yr. olds are commercially more popular than those that produce later maturing offspring as the get of sires that produce 2 yr old winners tend to bring more at the sales. Seems like that would be an interesting trait to track in retriever sires--those that produce Derby List dogs, for example, as a percentage of starters compared to say, dogs that produce AA pointed or titled all age dogs as a percentage of starters. Too bad the AKC or LRC doesn't track that kind of stuff.
 
#34 ·
I believe breeders could do more to improve the breed by more line breeding instead of continually out crossing to the latest greatest dog in the public eye to sell pups....Steve S
 
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