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Thread: Marks during force work

  1. #11
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    I'm with Howard.
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  2. #12
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    Evan - Let me ask my question another way so maybe your answer will get through my thick scull.

    If I decide it would be detrimental to mark my dog during force fetch at what point in the FF process would you consider it sound training to resume marking? In other words when is it ok to enforce the FF standard in the field?

    Thank you for your time.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    When you read in your dog that he is not dropping, rolling, or mouthing the fetch object...needing frequent reminders and/or corrections. That should indicate that your dog understands his job, even though he's not finished with the coursework yet. If you are seeing in your daily sessions behavior that indicates these problems should seldom occur, mark him. His behavior in the field will tell you if your read is correct, and that includes ease of corrections if he needs it. One more time...I think you should mark your dog unless or until he shows you it's detrimental to his training.

    Evan
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    thanks I get it now.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Tim West's Avatar
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    I generally don't do any marking during FF. I want the dog to get through it quickly and I like to have morning and evening sessions. My best dogs got through it quickly.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    I will do it while dog is still on table. Once they move to the ground, then no-no retrieving until they are delivering to heel the right way.
    Most of the dogs I get in for training have not been started right and already have horrible retrieve habits. My job is to eliminate them-
    Have FF'd hundreds of dogs this way -
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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie View Post
    I will do it while dog is still on table. Once they move to the ground, then no-no retrieving until they are delivering to heel the right way.
    Most of the dogs I get in for training have not been started right and already have horrible retrieve habits. My job is to eliminate them-
    Have FF'd hundreds of dogs this way -
    I think where guys like Howard and I are coming from is that of the serious amateur. As amateurs who have been around the block with more than a few dogs, we start our dogs marking at an early age, way before FF. Through means other than FF we get them to deliver to hand. We generally have good dogs with lots of drive who drive out and pick up the bumper or bird naturally, and it isn't hard to get them to bring the bird back and heel by our side with bird in mouth. We studiously avoid cheating water, cover or situations that require a trained response. In other words we start our dogs right. I can a pro is typically in a different situation.

    John

  8. #18
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I think where guys like Howard and I are coming from is that of the serious amateur. As amateurs who have been around the block with more than a few dogs, we start our dogs marking at an early age, way before FF. Through means other than FF we get them to deliver to hand. We generally have good dogs with lots of drive who drive out and pick up the bumper or bird naturally, and it isn't hard to get them to bring the bird back and heel by our side with bird in mouth. We studiously avoid cheating water, cover or situations that require a trained response. In other words we start our dogs right. I can a pro is typically in a different situation.

    John
    Pretty much true. My dogs have been marking out in the field with the big dogs since they were 8-10 weeks old. I do ff at the house the first 2-3 weeks of ff. When we go out to the field they have always gotten some marks just like the big dogs. I do not change the routine when we force fetch.

    Some of them haven't been delivering to hand at that point. Some just come and spit the bumper/bird out near my feet and line themselves with me for the next mark. Up to that point I have always allowed this behavior and I let it continue until we have reached a stage of ff that they understand delivery. Often I don't have to do much work on this in the field as they will start good mouth habits and delivery on their own as ff has continued.

    The argument that they are learning bad, you can't enforce good, mouth habits has never held water to me. Why would something they've been doing and enjoying since they were 3 or 4 months old suddenly be bad just because you are pinching their ear in ff? Ff has always been in a completely different place and different situation for my dogs than marking. When they've progressed enough to understand hold and delivery I have never had a problem of the dog having trouble transferring it to the field.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member FOM's Avatar
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    I'm in the same camp as Howard....there has to be something in it for the dog and the retrieve (marks) is what they live for....it's a balance.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member TonyLattuca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    Pretty much true. My dogs have been marking out in the field with the big dogs since they were 8-10 weeks old. I do ff at the house the first 2-3 weeks of ff. When we go out to the field they have always gotten some marks just like the big dogs. I do not change the routine when we force fetch.

    Some of them haven't been delivering to hand at that point. Some just come and spit the bumper/bird out near my feet and line themselves with me for the next mark. Up to that point I have always allowed this behavior and I let it continue until we have reached a stage of ff that they understand delivery. Often I don't have to do much work on this in the field as they will start good mouth habits and delivery on their own as ff has continued.

    The argument that they are learning bad, you can't enforce good, mouth habits has never held water to me. Why would something they've been doing and enjoying since they were 3 or 4 months old suddenly be bad just because you are pinching their ear in ff? Ff has always been in a completely different place and different situation for my dogs than marking. When they've progressed enough to understand hold and delivery I have never had a problem of the dog having trouble transferring it to the field.
    This where I am at now with this pup. Hes been running marks since he was 8 weeks and I have never had an issue with him not returning. He just spits out at my feet and heels up for another mark. The only time he really was sloppy was last month when he was teething really bad and he would drop it a few times on the return.

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