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Thread: CA: Lead ammo ban is essentially a ban on hunting

  1. #31
    Senior Member BHB's Avatar
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    More proof... read the bottom underlined section.

    CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE REVIEW OF AB 711

    MAY 21, 2013.

    Sacramento, CA - The California Department of Finance (DOF) analysis of the fiscal effect of Assembly Bill (AB) 711 was released on May 13, 2013, revealing that AB 711 could cost California $34 million, and probably a lot more.

    Even with the potentially enormous costs associated with AB 711, including the loss of federal, state and local funding from hunting licenses, the loss of California jobs and revenue from a reduction in hunting and the loss of federal funding for California conservation programs, lead ammunition ban proponents still seek to ban hunting with lead ammunition nationwide.

    The DOF’s calculations are based on three components. The first is the potential loss of revenue due to decreased sales of hunting licenses that the DOF estimates at about $9 million. The second is a proportional loss of California’s $14 million annual revenue from federal funding due to decreased sales of hunting licenses, which is based on geographic size and the number of hunting licenses sold. Compounding the loss of this revenue, the federal funding is specifically earmarked to support wildlife conservation efforts in California. The third factor is increased costs that AB 711 establishes in a program to provide hunters with “free,” or reduced charge, non-lead ammunition. This could cost California as much as $11 million annually.

    Most importantly, there are two cost components that the DOF did not include in its analysis. The first is the fiscal impact that hunters and hunting expenditures have on the state. In 2011, hunting expenditures in California totaled $964 million, which included equipment, food, lodging, and transportation. The second is the additional Department of Fish and Wildlife wardens required to enforce a statewide lead ammunition ban. But, the AB 711 proponents have concealed the enforcement issue. Indeed, at 2012 Department of Fish and Game Commission hearings on lead ammunition, researchers and environmental groups themselves blamed the Department’s lack of enforcement in the “condor zone” as the primary reason why the 2008 lead ammunition ban (AB 823) did not result in a reduction of lead poisoning in condors, despite a 99% compliance rate by hunters with the lead ban.




    We have had a ban on lead rifle ammo in the southern part of the state since 08. Since then there have been no reduction of lead poisoning in condors in that vast area. Need I say more?

    BHB
    Ahhhh, the smell of a bay dog... nothin finer!

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  2. #32
    Senior Member Waterdogs's Avatar
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    I have to Agree with Bubba Mexico can have California back the problem is we have a large number moving to Idaho. I doubt Mexico would want it back.
    Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.

  3. #33
    Senior Member PalouseDogs's Avatar
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    Condors are affected more by lead than coyotes for several reasons.

    1. Birds (having no teeth) grind food in their gizzards, often using grit or gravel to help. Ingested lead pellets and fragments get ground up as well. Some birds will even intentionally ingest lead pellets because the pellets are the preferred size of grit for them. Swans and other waterfowl, for example, intentionally ingest lead pellets that fall in muck; which is why the first big push to ban lead was for wetland hunting. Lead passes through coyotes fairly quickly compared to birds, and the digestive system of coyotes isn't designed to pulverize the lead pellets like that of birds.

    2. Condors have a very long lifespan. They do not reach sexual maturity until they are 5 or 6 years old, when they first begin looking for a mate. They have to potential to live 50-60 years. That is a very, very long time. They chances that a condor can make it to sexual maturity, never mind 50 years, without stumbling upon a carcass with lead fragments is slim. The effects of lead are cumulative. It is not easily excreted. Coyotes can have pups by the time they are a year old and they rarely live more than a few years in the wild. Coyotes rarely live long enough to accumulate enough lead to kill them.

    3. Condors are specialist on large animal carrion. Coyotes will eat just about anything from melons in fields to unfortunate cats, but the vast majority of their diet in most areas consists of small rodents, which rarely contain large amounts of lead pellets. Coyotes eat any carrion they find, but its the large animals that are more likely to contain lead shot. Hunters generally pack out the entire bodies of small animals, but they often leave much of the carcass of a large animal.

    Combine all those factors: a long life span, grinding ingested lead in a gizzard, and being a large animal carcass specialist, and you have an animals that is the poster child for lead toxicosis.

    Hunters today wear clothes made of Gortex instead of oilskin, they use carry a GPS instead of a compass, they haul carcasses out with ATVs instead of horses. Everything about hunting has changed dramatically in the last 50 years, except they still have to use lead bullets? The country that invented iPhones and cold cereal can't create a decent bullet that doesn't contain lead? I don't believe it.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalouseDogs View Post
    Condors are affected more by lead than coyotes for several reasons.

    1. Birds (having no teeth) grind food in their gizzards, often using grit or gravel to help. Ingested lead pellets and fragments get ground up as well. Some birds will even intentionally ingest lead pellets because the pellets are the preferred size of grit for them. Swans and other waterfowl, for example, intentionally ingest lead pellets that fall in muck; which is why the first big push to ban lead was for wetland hunting. Lead passes through coyotes fairly quickly compared to birds, and the digestive system of coyotes isn't designed to pulverize the lead pellets like that of birds.

    2. Condors have a very long lifespan. They do not reach sexual maturity until they are 5 or 6 years old, when they first begin looking for a mate. They have to potential to live 50-60 years. That is a very, very long time. They chances that a condor can make it to sexual maturity, never mind 50 years, without stumbling upon a carcass with lead fragments is slim. The effects of lead are cumulative. It is not easily excreted. Coyotes can have pups by the time they are a year old and they rarely live more than a few years in the wild. Coyotes rarely live long enough to accumulate enough lead to kill them.

    3. Condors are specialist on large animal carrion. Coyotes will eat just about anything from melons in fields to unfortunate cats, but the vast majority of their diet in most areas consists of small rodents, which rarely contain large amounts of lead pellets. Coyotes eat any carrion they find, but its the large animals that are more likely to contain lead shot. Hunters generally pack out the entire bodies of small animals, but they often leave much of the carcass of a large animal.

    Combine all those factors: a long life span, grinding ingested lead in a gizzard, and being a large animal carcass specialist, and you have an animals that is the poster child for lead toxicosis.

    Hunters today wear clothes made of Gortex instead of oilskin, they use carry a GPS instead of a compass, they haul carcasses out with ATVs instead of horses. Everything about hunting has changed dramatically in the last 50 years, except they still have to use lead bullets? The country that invented iPhones and cold cereal can't create a decent bullet that doesn't contain lead? I don't believe it.
    The solution to the lead bullet has been developed. It is called the wind turbine.

    http://www.cfact.org/2013/03/18/wind...-birds-a-year/

  5. #35
    Senior Member BHB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalouseDogs View Post
    Condors are affected more by lead than coyotes for several reasons.

    1. Birds (having no teeth) grind food in their gizzards, often using grit or gravel to help. Ingested lead pellets and fragments get ground up as well. Some birds will even intentionally ingest lead pellets because the pellets are the preferred size of grit for them. Swans and other waterfowl, for example, intentionally ingest lead pellets that fall in muck; which is why the first big push to ban lead was for wetland hunting. Lead passes through coyotes fairly quickly compared to birds, and the digestive system of coyotes isn't designed to pulverize the lead pellets like that of birds.

    2. Condors have a very long lifespan. They do not reach sexual maturity until they are 5 or 6 years old, when they first begin looking for a mate. They have to potential to live 50-60 years. That is a very, very long time. They chances that a condor can make it to sexual maturity, never mind 50 years, without stumbling upon a carcass with lead fragments is slim. The effects of lead are cumulative. It is not easily excreted. Coyotes can have pups by the time they are a year old and they rarely live more than a few years in the wild. Coyotes rarely live long enough to accumulate enough lead to kill them.

    3. Condors are specialist on large animal carrion. Coyotes will eat just about anything from melons in fields to unfortunate cats, but the vast majority of their diet in most areas consists of small rodents, which rarely contain large amounts of lead pellets. Coyotes eat any carrion they find, but its the large animals that are more likely to contain lead shot. Hunters generally pack out the entire bodies of small animals, but they often leave much of the carcass of a large animal.

    Combine all those factors: a long life span, grinding ingested lead in a gizzard, and being a large animal carcass specialist, and you have an animals that is the poster child for lead toxicosis.

    Hunters today wear clothes made of Gortex instead of oilskin, they use carry a GPS instead of a compass, they haul carcasses out with ATVs instead of horses. Everything about hunting has changed dramatically in the last 50 years, except they still have to use lead bullets? The country that invented iPhones and cold cereal can't create a decent bullet that doesn't contain lead? I don't believe it.
    Seems to me that you're not comparing apples to apples. There really is no comparison of coyotes to condors. I ask the question all the time, "Why don't we see the same lead poisoning results in turkey vultures as we do in condors?" They far outnumber the condors. They eat the same things and share the same carcasses so why don't the vultures succumb to "lead poisoning"?

    This lead ban is a political agenda, not a biological solution!

    BHB
    Ahhhh, the smell of a bay dog... nothin finer!

    One who lives this life without plans for eternity may appear to be wise for the moment but a fool forever.

    Our lives are not made by the dreams we dream but by the choices we make.

    "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the American
    Government take care of him; better take a closer look at the American
    Indian." Henry Ford

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