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To many No birds at a test? Judges?

9K views 37 replies 27 participants last post by  John Robinson 
#1 ·
What do yall consider to many no birds from the flier station for a test.
When would you fire the shooters if you could?
 
#3 ·
2 no birds in a row.
 
#5 ·
before you criticize a bird thrower or a gunner You gotta ask yourself

1. if not them, then who

2. are you prepared to go out there and throw


Throwing a live pheasant flyer is a tough task if you have never done it, there is a reason they have masks on because they are ornery birds, so are banty roosters...getting a pheasant to fly in a somewhat controlled direction takes some skill, and a gunner who can adjust to every type of throw imaginable....add the pressure of a field trial and its a recipe for failure..I consider myself a good to very good bird thrower, but I do not enjoy the pressure of throwing the flyer at a trial..
 
#7 ·
Ur absolutely right, the thrower on a flier station has a lot of control over no birds. If you have a good thrower that can put a nice arc on the bird, and the wind is correct some pretty fliers can be shot. If the thrower is only giving you the ass end of the bird to hit, your going to have no birds. "The bird thrower will make you.. or break you" is true in all aspects...
 
#6 ·
As both a judge and a gunner, I look at both sides. Recently as a gunner, the judges set up a bad situation at the flyer station that basically made it impossible for gunners. It was pointed out to the judges that with that set up there was a good likelihood of no birds, which there were. Dogs were sent for birds they shouldn't have been and it made for a bad test overall. When I am judging I like to confer with my gunners to be certain they have clear fields of fire and are comfortable with where I want the birds dropped. That being said, I have not come across too many situations where no birds were a problem to a great extent.

Dawn
 
#8 ·
Judges can cause no birds just as easily by the way they set up a test. I shot for a club after a test had a pile of no birds. Thankfully, an excellent thrower came out with us replacing the group that was in and it made all the difference in the world. We did have control of changing the test because we would not throw or shoot until well after the left bird had retired quite a long distance behind an oak tree. Even then, the slightest left turn was a no bird. The slightest right turn was a no bird behind the gunners. Horrible set up but, the judges pushed through too many dogs to scrap the test apparently. I wish I'd never walked out into that field with a gun in my hand. The judges should have been fired after the first three no birds and they didn't change the test.

Just as easily, an overzealous thrower can equally cause issues. The judges want a bird to land 20 yards in front of the station and the gunner is acting like he needs to throw a 40 yard flier? Try to talk them into a soft blooper throw and he thinks its the world series and he's going to throw the runner out at home plate-

Sun coming up, high noon, sun going down-

Fliers with no feathers

Wind

There are million and one reasons why no birds occur. I'm always happy when someone calls no bird for safety because it means folks are paying attention and keeping on their toes.
 
#14 ·
The judges want a bird to land 20 yards in front of the station and the gunner is acting like he needs to throw a 40 yard flier?
.
My only question is why waste a flier on a fall that is just an average dead bird throw?

Before trying to make a flier a controlled bird judges should ask themselves what is the purpose of a flier and how is that incorporated in a marking test.
 
#9 ·
To echo Bon's comments, it's easy to play armchair quarterback. I've thrown, shot, and thrown and shot. None of it is easy. One trick I learned by chance with ducks is to stick their heads in a shorts or jacket pocket when I get each one out of the crate. They get quiet and settle down making it better for the dog at the line to not have the flyer quacking like crazy as well as making for a more accurate, consistent throw.

As a shooter, wind plays a huge factor. I've thrown and shot when the wind was swirling in the fourth series. The first 12 birds were shot cleanly and within about a 20 foot radius. The wind then shifted into our faces. The next two birds flew straight up and hard left right at the the middle gun station. We ended up with two no birds in a row due to a bird landing at our feet and the next preventing a shot entirely due to being unsafe. We had one more no bird that series due to the wind. I've definitely seen some bad shots and bad throwers but it's often more the result of bad setups or bad conditions than just people who don't know what they're doing.
 
#10 ·
They get quiet and settle down making it better for the dog at the line to not have the flyer quacking like crazy as well as making for a more accurate, consistent throw.
.
just put your finger in the quack hole.
 
#11 ·
More than one no bird is annoying to me. Recently participated in a test where not one, yes that is correct, flyer was killed outright. Guess we could have fired those guys but then again it was remarkably consistent.
 
#12 ·
Shot a lot of tests and trials. This summer at one test the flier was thrown directly at the sun. If you have never tried it you need to see the outcome. Another all the birds thrown directly into the wind. another the bird was thrown right at a large pine tree and you couldn't see it until it cleared the tree and at 6:30 in the evening it was virtually impossible to see it at all so the last two birds were no birds. Now I wonder why that was. Judges have to work with what they are given so its just as tough on them as it is the gunners. Arm chair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen, they sit back and never offer to help just complain when things don't go thier way.
Clay
 
#15 · (Edited)
1. You can't "fire" someone that you didn't hire.

2. If you think that you can do better then march your ass over to the marshall and apply for the job (I'm pretty sure that at this point you will find out that there is no "hiring" process).

3. A no-bird has never bothered my dog, he sees plenty of those while hunting.

It is easy to piss and moan about lots of things at a HT or FT but remember this, if it weren't for all of the VOLUNTEERS then our sport would not exist.

Lonnie Spann
 
#16 · (Edited)
Hmm I've gunned several times, I'm usually pretty good at it, single shots for most birds, like maybe 2 called no birds (birds were dead), in an entire masters stake; (usually when our thrower is replaced); However I have had some really hard days, where judges insist on setting up tests where; even after they've been told several times; circumstances are so bad for shooting that three good gunners couldn't get it done. Throwing Chukars into the wind (which kept speeding up) & into the setting sun, bird must land in a square, or a no bird was called. Got so bad one lady had 5 no-birds in a row, changed out gunners 3 times, eventually I believe steps were taken to ensure No-more No-birds, and they still had them because the bird would blow back into the gunners blind (it was terrible), and no one was more angry than the Gunners.

I do believe the gun-steward is responsible for ensuring a club has the best gunners available, and they shouldn't just put anyone out there, but there is not a gunner alive who doesn't hate no-birds. I don't know of anyone who wouldn't gladly give up their spot to a better shooter. So if you are that better shooter, get off you buttocks and get out there; if your not might as well quit whining, we're not payed for this. Still if Judges want to switch gunners out after 1 no-bird, I'm completely fine with it; there are many other things; I could be doing with my Sat & Sun. I do wish them very good luck finding other shooters, on the Property; particularly those clubs that for some reason or other always hold their events during hunting season, a few even on Opener.

That's a really fun call to answer when you're out in a duck blind; "Hey we're having problems, can you come out to shoot (I doubt it, I'm 3 hours away hunting). What about XYZ?, (Well they're sitting in the Blind beside me, but let me ask ;) ) (Hold on a second...QUACK..BOOM)... (I'm back; XYZ say they'd love too; but I have the keys, so unfortunately they're marooned ;) )....AHHH!!! Do you know anyone who can come out to shoot!!!?...(Umm, you are aware that it's Duck Opener Right?, in fact what the heck are you doing there ;))... <phone goes quite> Blah(wife) Blah(kids) Blah(gun steward)> ..(QUACK QUACK QUACK...BOOM BOOM...KOTA...(Hey dude, We got a sailor, I'm gonna have to let you go, but good luck) <chorus from the background>, GOODBYE; have fun at the HT, We miss you LOL;) ;)) click.
 
#18 ·
I'm much more bothered when the judges don't call no bird when it should be called. An angled in flyer vs 23 getting well out there and angled back is an unfair test. A no bird is a no bird and should be called. I'll never fuss at the gunners, I've missed my fair share and alway end up shootig it seems.
 
#20 ·
As a judge unless the bird is a fly away or goes way back behind the gunners, the no-bird call is usually a no win situation. Don't call it and hope the dog comes up with it without too much of a hunt, but feel terrible when the dog hunts forever, or call it only to watch the dog run directly to where the first "bad" bird fell and hunt his heart out there. As a handler this is one of those things where I usually don't want them to call no-bird unless it's so long it effects the other marks.

John
 
#23 ·
Wow. Ithink I would have gave up.
I aint run alot of tests but have worked alot and have caused some no birds, or bird flys out of crate. Ive been told I throw like a girl before and I told him to fire me. Almost heat stroked sitting out in 90 pluss heat with no shade
But its all fun!!!! Id rather throw birds than marshal
 
#25 ·
Once I release the dog to handler control, I've decided that it's a retrieveable bird. Too many new handlers think that a "no bird" needs to be called if their bird is not an exact duplicate of every other bird that's thrown. If the bird becomes unretrieveable after the dog's released, I have another way to complete the test sequence than a "no bird"....the handler sits the dog at the spot, he and I walk out and toss a bird to the ground, and then have the dog retrieve that bird. The dog is judged to the spot where the bird should have been and then for the delivery to the handler.

I've got another issue. I'm against sluicing a bird in the field. First of all, too many times, make that more than once is too many, the gunners sluice after the dog has been released. The other reason is that it represents an unfair advantage for the dog that's running, particularly on water. Most dogs see the bird flighted and shot and then are expected to mark the fall. Sluicing the bird "points" to the bird while it's on the ground. I'd much rather have the dog pick-up a live flier that we then need to dispatch. If the bird takes flight, see above.
 
#31 ·
But if it is an impossible bird it should be called. When a bird angles in and is barely off the crate is tough when it's down wind. Everyone the dog was down wind of the bird he was down wind of the station. No way to get that bird unless the dog hints where he should not. I completely understand every bird will not be the same and the flyer especially. I'll take a no bird over that again all day and live with it.
 
#26 ·
The pheasant flier for my dog at the Master National (2012) was only dinged. She had a long-hard hunt in tall grass and couldn't recover. She found it... but she was young and it fried her little brain and she couldn't pull it together for the memory bird. Oh, well. At another Master series she had two no-birds on the fliers... but also two on wingers! I think the kids on the wingers were smoking dope or something. Once the judge signaled and nothing happened. Did the kid fall asleep??? THe other time, the winger malfunctioned. Again... she was young and it just messed with her too much.

On the whole, a really salty dog will keep it together and pull it off when it counts. What happened to us wasn't strictly "fair" but on the other hand, it probably exposed some weaknesses in my dog. She's grown up a lot and we're half way to qualifying for 2014 MN. See you guys in Corning!!!
 
#28 ·
There is always a lot of pressure shooting flyers, your thrower makes or breaks it, and yes there is sun glare,tree line problems, wind changing ,how the bird is presented ,no one hates the no bird greater then the gunner.Then you just do the best you can and remember what's it is like when your running your own dog , on a different note, I have been thanked after finishing shooting more often by the pro trainers , I think they know a little better what's it like.
 
#29 ·
Not to mention birds that won't fly, etc.

I have found that throwing a couple of excellent wing shots out at the flyer station often doesn't cut it. Shooting flyers is different and often it is better to have someone who has shot a lot of flyers even if they are not the best shots.
 
#34 ·
Don't even want to try to beat that one! Holy Buckets!! Most I have ever had is 3 in one test with the same dog, it worked out great because he was closer to me as we walked to the line each time, he thought he was getting in trouble for beating me to the mat! :cool:11 with one dog in one day I think you would have to either 1. hit the cooler early or 2. check in with your Dr. for some blood pressure meds!
Aaron
It was three dogs,,entered in their first event,,,,but still 11 no birds One of the no birds was when I ran her as test dog because she went kaput in the second series,,,, So 10 official in contention no birds,,,
it was a busy day.

Pete
 
#35 ·
Just a thought to open up the topic of less no birds in a trial. Give ur experience in placing live birds in wingers to get consistent performance from mature birds that will fly. A lot of FT throw flyers from wingers to at least get a consistent boost for the duck to get airborne.
 
#37 ·
Doug-

I don't have any problem with sluicing as you describe it. If every bird is sluiced then the judges know to not release until it happens. Further, there's no advantage.

I just get nervous with these sometimes random acts and feel it is unfair to boot.
 
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