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Thread: Line Manners

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    Senior Member ada5771's Avatar
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    Default Line Manners

    What are some of the best ways to improve line manners? I have trained my 17mo pup and i am having trouble with his line manners starting to stand up on marks when he is getting way to excited and moving around. I know line manners start with sit so at home i work on sit and reinforcing sit and I also try to put him in exciting situations but he never breaks the standard in training alone for me to correct him. Its only once a week when he gets around other dogs and new places, the excitement causes him to drop his standard. I just recently started training with another guy during the week who has 2 dogs which causes the same excitement. So hopefully i can train it out of him by making the proper corrections at the proper time while training with other the dogs. HERE are my questions 1. how should i go about enforcing the standards at the line. I have trained with a heeling stick and the whip seems to not even faze him when he’s excited. 2. are there any other drills or things i need to be focusing on at the house that will improve his line manners?


    Thanks,
    Drew
    Last edited by ada5771; 10-10-2013 at 03:28 PM.
    Drew Allain

    Cajun Made King "Zeus"

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    Default Retriever News.

    Very good article in this months retriever news regarding this question.



    Quote Originally Posted by ada5771 View Post
    What are some of the best ways to improve line manners? I have trained my 17mo pup and i am having trouble with his line manners starting to stand up on marks when he is getting way to excited and moving around. I know line manners start with sit so at home i work on sit and reinforcing sit and I also try to put him in exciting situations but he never breaks the standard in training alone for me to correct him. Its only once a week when he gets around other dogs and new places, the excitement causes him to drop his standard. I just recently started training with another guy during the week who has 2 dogs which causes the same excitement. So hopefully i can train it out of him by making the proper corrections at the proper time while training with other the dogs. HERE are my questions 1. how should i go about enforcing the standards at the line. I have trained with a heeling stick and the whip seems to not even faze him when he’s excited. 2. are there any other drills or things i need to be focusing on at the house that will improve his line manners?


    Thanks,
    Drew

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    Senior Member i_willie12's Avatar
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    Did they answer the question....? Cause thats just the question
    "Some people pride themselves on how far they can shoot ducks, others pride themselves on how close they can get them. I'm an other!!! "
    John Stephens RNT

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    Senior Member Randy Bohn's Avatar
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    Sounds like no retrieve and strict obedience for awhile......to bad you don't live closer we could probably fix him in a few hours...or at least get it close....Randy
    CHRIS ATKINSON...PLEASE don't QUIT CHANGING MY PROFILE PAGE!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohn View Post
    Sounds like no retrieve and strict obedience for awhile......to bad you don't live closer we could probably fix him in a few hours...or at least get it close....Randy

    Give us a run down of the magic Im not getting any head way with my line manners.

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    There is a dog in our training circle, courageously run by a gal who just started in the game... (her husband's super-bred hunting dog... and doesn't it get started that way a lot of the time?)... and this dog has been a fire-breather from the get-go. She's gotten an MH title on the dog by using zero tolerance. If the dog whimpers or wiggles in the blind, she gets put back in the truck. If she makes it to the line and inches up... she's heeled off the line and put back on the truck. Worst pressure you can put on this dog is to not let her get the retrieve. There might be lots of approaches but that's what turned this dog around

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    Senior Member Sophie Gundog's Avatar
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    At home you may want to set up a holding blind, each time you run a back pile or a T drill. Dog goes in the blind, out on a different side, heels to the line, any movement, not meeting standards, back to the blind and sit, then start over, some correction but for me it was just repeating and working through it each time, as the prey drive is so strong , the reward for doing it was there.By the way it works very well in training, I got less then half at hunt tests, but it's a journey and for us it was a game changer.
    Nothing Bad happens to pup on my watch

    Steve Talbot

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ada5771 View Post
    HERE are my questions 1. how should i go about enforcing the standards at the line. I have trained with a heeling stick and the whip seems to not even faze him when he’s excited. 2. are there any other drills or things i need to be focusing on at the house that will improve his line manners?


    Thanks,
    Drew
    Before you used the heeling stick for this issue, did you condition your dog to it during Basics? Is this dog e-collar conditioned...pressure conditioned?

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

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    Senior Member ada5771's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Before you used the heeling stick for this issue, did you condition your dog to it during Basics? Is this dog e-collar conditioned...pressure conditioned?

    Evan

    Yes i went through OB, and CC. I have followed TRT very religiously step by step I used the heeling threw out the entire process stick to pile, stick fetch, OB. When training alone i could give a swift whip from heeling stick the second a heel or sit standard is broken and not have to correct it again, he immediately remembers and upholds the standard. It is only when around other dogs and a mock type test environment that he drops the standard which at that point the swift whip as a reminder is not reminding him he is breaking a standard nor does he care. I have set up multiple mock blinds at the house and he does fine behind them because there are no other dogs running test and he knows it. I have even placed a recording of a test to try to increase the excitement and he knows this is a decoy as well. I have had my fiancée shoot live rounds which tends to arouse him and lead to some times breaking a standard and allows me to correct on it but for the most part his line manners are well within the standard at the house and training alone. Yesterday i had a chance to train with a couple dogs. So i went back to a pinch collar and single marks off Bumper boys if his back muscles so much and flinched up as if he was going to pick his butt up off the ground i gave a pull back on the pinch collar and "sit" denied the retrieve. Waited a while and shot another bumper from Bumper Boy. I did not let him make a retrieve if he moved again and i gave a correction. I only let him go if he was completely motionless. I think this started to break him down. He drastically decreased on movement as the session went on, I think in about a month or so doing this will break him down enough to move back to doubles. Until then its No RETRIEVE until motionless.
    Drew Allain

    Cajun Made King "Zeus"

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    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ada5771 View Post
    What are some of the best ways to improve line manners? I have trained my 17mo pup and i am having trouble with his line manners starting to stand up on marks when he is getting way to excited and moving around. I know line manners start with sit so at home i work on sit and reinforcing sit and I also try to put him in exciting situations but he never breaks the standard in training alone for me to correct him. Its only once a week when he gets around other dogs and new places, the excitement causes him to drop his standard. I just recently started training with another guy during the week who has 2 dogs which causes the same excitement. So hopefully i can train it out of him by making the proper corrections at the proper time while training with other the dogs. HERE are my questions 1. how should i go about enforcing the standards at the line. I have trained with a heeling stick and the whip seems to not even faze him when he’s excited. 2. are there any other drills or things i need to be focusing on at the house that will improve his line manners?


    Thanks,
    Drew
    Quote Originally Posted by ada5771 View Post
    Yes i went through OB, and CC. I have followed TRT very religiously step by step I used the heeling threw out the entire process stick to pile, stick fetch, OB. When training alone i could give a swift whip from heeling stick the second a heel or sit standard is broken and not have to correct it again, he immediately remembers and upholds the standard. It is only when around other dogs and a mock type test environment that he drops the standard which at that point the swift whip as a reminder is not reminding him he is breaking a standard nor does he care. I have set up multiple mock blinds at the house and he does fine behind them because there are no other dogs running test and he knows it. I have even placed a recording of a test to try to increase the excitement and he knows this is a decoy as well. I have had my fiancée shoot live rounds which tends to arouse him and lead to some times breaking a standard and allows me to correct on it but for the most part his line manners are well within the standard at the house and training alone. Yesterday i had a chance to train with a couple dogs. So i went back to a pinch collar and single marks off Bumper boys if his back muscles so much and flinched up as if he was going to pick his butt up off the ground i gave a pull back on the pinch collar and "sit" denied the retrieve. Waited a while and shot another bumper from Bumper Boy. I did not let him make a retrieve if he moved again and i gave a correction. I only let him go if he was completely motionless. I think this started to break him down. He drastically decreased on movement as the session went on, I think in about a month or so doing this will break him down enough to move back to doubles. Until then its No RETRIEVE until motionless.



    Drew, I have spent a long time in your shoes. Maybe this is just semantics, but I think it is important that you stop and think about what a standard is and WHO sets and enforces it. In all of the above, you refer to your dog "breaking the standard", etc. Standards are yours and yours alone. I think it really matters to take the responsibility on yourself, not blame the dog. As a matter of fact, you do work your way around to it by your very last sentence. No retrieve is YOU maintaining YOUR standard. And having been there, you are right. At this point a stick is going to do you no good whatsoever. Put away your desire to test or compete, and deny retrieves as long as necessary. EVEN IF YOU DROVE 2 HOURS OR MORE TO GET TO THE TRAINING DAY! As Randy said, your dog at his age is probably "fixable". If you try to move on without fixing, you may never get to do anything with him at all.
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

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