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Thread: Question for akc rules junkies

  1. #1
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Default Question for akc rules junkies

    AKC senior hunt test water series. The setup was one mark on the right thrown right to left on the opposite bank. The go bird was left of the line on the near bank to be tossed into the water. The blind was in between the marks almost directly across from the line.

    Because the blind was between the marks, it was to be run first. The hunt test committee had to approve all setups and they disapproved this one because of the location of the blind (between marks).

    I thought this was ok because the blind was to be run first.
    Wayne Nutt
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    I'm not a rule junky.

    I like that the committee wanted the judges to change the test as I do not believe a blind should ever be between the two marks in senior. But... I don't believe the committee had the right to approve the setups except for an issue of safety. The judges set the test and interpret the rules as they apply to their test.

    Am I wrong?
    Howard Niemi

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  3. #3
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    I do not believe it violates the letter of the rules but if you think about why the rule is on the books you would try extremely hard to find a blind outside the marks. Depending on the set up, the dogs could be dealing with looking at holding blinds or dealing with scent from the fall areas. I do not believe a Senior dog should have to deal with either.

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    Perfectly ok to do it that way....As Howard stated the committee can over rule a set up because of safety but not in this case...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  5. #5
    Senior Member Good Dogs's Avatar
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    I agree with Tom and started this before I read his post. But, I'll carry on anyway.
    I don't have to open the book to know that in senior tests blinds shall - note: shall - not be run between marks. The book does NOT say "Unless the blind is run first." The reason is to remove that suction for these young - at least in their training - dogs. Even though pup may not have seen the marks go down there is still scent and very visible throwing stations - unless they have unlike any senior test I've seen been very careful to fully brush and hide the stations - that will affect the pups. IMO the HT committee was correct in pointing out that the setup was a violation of the rules. (I've also had judges claim that an under the arc blind was OK as it was not "between the marks." Some folks seem to spend more effort in figuring out how to work around the rules than just working with them.)
    Last edited by Good Dogs; 10-14-2013 at 01:47 PM.

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    Senior Member GulfCoast's Avatar
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    Jerry Mann addresses this point specifically in the Seminar. Just sayin.
    Wm. Mark Edwards
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Good Dogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I'm not a rule junky.

    I like that the committee wanted the judges to change the test as I do not believe a blind should ever be between the two marks in senior. But... I don't believe the committee had the right to approve the setups except for an issue of safety. The judges set the test and interpret the rules as they apply to their test.

    Am I wrong?
    Here is what the regs and rules say:
    "The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test
    Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all
    of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests,
    except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the
    Judges."
    But "that does not mean that the Event Committee cannot intervene when a test is contrary to the Rules and Regulations. When the judges set up a test contrary to the Rules and Regulations, the Event Committee has the power - and the obligation - to 'step' in and advise the judges of the illegal conditions and require that the flaw be corrected."
    That is from the article on committee responsibilities that the AKC has published at the back of EE catalogs.

  8. #8
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GulfCoast View Post
    Jerry Mann addresses this point specifically in the Seminar. Just sayin.
    And what specificallisticall did Mr Mann says about this in the Seminar for those of us that haven't attended one.

    I , ll prolly just run em and not worry about such things, and Hopefully have fun doin it.

    But I would like to know what Mr Mann Said,even IF it does contradict the rules.

    Curious regards

    Gooser

    I was always under the impression blind could not be between the marks, but, I have been confused on a continual basis fed a long time now.. I take huge amounts of more dictation for the problem.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member GulfCoast's Avatar
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    Mr. Mann said if you run the blind first, then its not between the marks. I would say "its not between the marks YET" but its between the bird crates, the holding blinds, suction, gunners moving around, etc. and probably not a real swell idea. But they don't let me give the seminars for obvious reasons. My dogs have run more than one "not between the marks YET" blinds in Senior, some turned out better than others, depending on the wind off the flyer station.....
    Wm. Mark Edwards
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  10. #10
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Dogs View Post
    The book does NOT say "Unless the blind is run first."
    Mr. Mann is not some oracle pronouncing what the rules are and this would not be the first time I disagreed with his reported pronouncements. The rules are the rules--in fact, I think I would take Mr. Swift's pronouncements more often

    I think the only way you could get away with doing this under the rules is if you ran the blind, did callbacks and then ran the marks. That way it would at least be a different series and the 'not between the marks yet' argument might hold some water. Still that would be pretty shaky justification for what everyone else with common sense seems to agree is a bad idea. Some times it may be very difficult to avoid given what the judges have to work with but it is a lot for a senior dog, not to mention what it might do to many of the poor handlers.

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