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Thread: Question for akc rules junkies

  1. #11
    Senior Member Karen Klotthor's Avatar
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    This is why Junior and Senior judges should get first choice of property and ponds over master. Master you can set up almost anything and work around stuff. In Senior real hard to set up a water blind in a cow pond along with water marks. . As for Jerry Mann, his interpetation of the rules are his alone.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Who is Mr. Swift?
    It's hard to believe it could have been worse with only 7 of
    27 passing (excluding the MH dog). See my Rowdy First Ribbon post.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
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    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

  3. #13
    Senior Member jacduck's Avatar
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    Had a situation where the water blind was not between the marks but required an angle entry with suction to commit cheating. I prefer not to tempt JR or SR dogs with a cheating situation if possible. Discussion about the setup later on opened up several scenarios that could be done. #1 run the blind as a land blind in the water series and do the water blind as part of the land series. #2 Run 3 series, a double on land, a double on water and a double blind, 1 land and 1 water. Now take yer choice cowboy, a blind 1st or other scenarios of which many could fall within the rules. Judges that work with the committee in their setups seem to have better setups. More eyes in the thought process are better. After all it is a test of dogs not a measure of a judges independence from all things foreign.
    John C aka jacduck


    "Duck hunter's minds are like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set."

  4. #14
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Dogs View Post
    Here is what the regs and rules say:
    "The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test
    Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all
    of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests,
    except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the
    Judges."
    But "that does not mean that the Event Committee cannot intervene when a test is contrary to the Rules and Regulations. When the judges set up a test contrary to the Rules and Regulations, the Event Committee has the power - and the obligation - to 'step' in and advise the judges of the illegal conditions and require that the flaw be corrected."
    That is from the article on committee responsibilities that the AKC has published at the back of EE catalogs.
    I couldn't find the above in the rule book. It might be there I just didn't find it. I did find the following which I knew was there:

    Section 4. Test Set-Up. The Judges, with paramount
    regard to Section 1 of this Chapter, shall determine the
    tests to be given and shall design those tests in order
    to approximate as nearly as possible the conditions met
    in true hunting situations. In keeping with this aim, the
    Judges shall design and enhance hunting situations by
    utilizing, as naturally as possible, the equipment that
    would be found in a true upland game or waterfowl hunting
    situation.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  5. #15
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    This exact scenario happened to me at my first Senior test. The gun stations were set up: one on the left bank, the other on the right bank. While you and dog are in holding blind before coming to the line, a diversion shot was fired from the right-hand gun station. The blind was right up the middle with hazzards to the right where the shot came from.

    If your dog has run any tests ever, its going to be frantically looking for gun stations as you walk to the line. She will find them and they will provide suction. However, this suction is perhaps less suction than if you're running a land double with a flyer then have to run the land blind placed 20 yards from the flyer station and in the same direction of the flyer AOF. Which is worse?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    Mr. Mann is not some oracle pronouncing what the rules are and this would not be the first time I disagreed with his reported pronouncements. The rules are the rules--in fact, I think I would take Mr. Swift's pronouncements more often

    I think the only way you could get away with doing this under the rules is if you ran the blind, did callbacks and then ran the marks. That way it would at least be a different series and the 'not between the marks yet' argument might hold some water. Still that would be pretty shaky justification for what everyone else with common sense seems to agree is a bad idea. Some times it may be very difficult to avoid given what the judges have to work with but it is a lot for a senior dog, not to mention what it might do to many of the poor handlers.
    In all my years of running I have only had to do this type set up a few times....I have set it up on one occasion and the marks were by invitation after the blind was run ....It up set handlers far more than it does dogs....If a Sr dog can't handle it isn't a Sr level dog...It is amazing what a dog can do when it has a calm confident handler at the controls.....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  7. #17
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    Like GoodDogs said, I think it's good to work with the committee as far as safety and the rules go. After that, leave me alone. I have seen several times where an entire MH test has been run and the minimum requirements for a MH were not met. That's inexcuseable IMO. Judges didn't know the rules and committee didn't either.
    Tom Dorroh

  8. #18
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    I have run one test where the blind was between the marks, just off the left hand gun station. Got my dog to the blind with two whistles but she didn't come up with a bird so sucked to the gun station. I put her back on blind and she sucked over again after the third time of handling her to the blind the judge finally yelled out to the bird boy did he plant the blind. His answer was no he didn't have any birds left. I called her in and they threw a diversion on the way in which she thought she should pick up. Needless to say I was not a happy camper because they felt she should be failed for going for the diversion.

  9. #19
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    Just for the record, Jerry Mann is one of the ultimate "deciders" of just what the rules say. If push comes to shove at a test, what the AKC rep says is "the law".

    As for this particular situation, two issues. The blind run first between where two marks will eventually appear is correct within the rules. Most of us don't like to do this if for no other reason than all the time we spend explaining why it would be legal.

    The second issue is the matter of the hunt test committee having to approve the test, it sounds like a joint HRC/AKC club in which the HRC members took on an authority which they do not have under any condition ... at an AKC test. Any committee that tried to do that to me would need to cite an authority in the rules ... which they couldn't do. If they insisted, I'd pick up the phone and consult with the AKC.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
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  10. #20
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Johnson View Post
    Just for the record, Jerry Mann is one of the ultimate "deciders" of just what the rules say. If push comes to shove at a test, what the AKC rep says is "the law".

    As for this particular situation, two issues. The blind run first between where two marks will eventually appear is correct within the rules. Most of us don't like to do this if for no other reason than all the time we spend explaining why it would be legal.

    The second issue is the matter of the hunt test committee having to approve the test, it sounds like a joint HRC/AKC club in which the HRC members took on an authority which they do not have under any condition ... at an AKC test. Any committee that tried to do that to me would need to cite an authority in the rules ... which they couldn't do. If they insisted, I'd pick up the phone and consult with the AKC.
    how the Heck did ya come up with a way to drag HRC into this?

    really ya have to tell Gooser how!
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
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    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
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