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Thread: Question for akc rules junkies

  1. #21
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    It's legal by rule

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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  2. #22
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    Why?

    Why was that blind so important in a Senior test? Why push the rules so far that the Hunt Test committee had to shut down your test to discuss it? Why upset the handlers?

    Challenge the dogs, not the rule book.

    J.O.

  3. #23
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    Perhaps the rule means to say that as a judge you cannot require the dog to pick up one of the marks, then the blind, then the other mark... if the blind is situated between the marks(?) or even if it is not(?) .Are marks interupted by a blind legal in a Senior HT?
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

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  4. #24
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    My recollection of the initial setup was that u couldn't see the right gun station from the line because of willows and brush. The left was on the near bank. Dog would have to turn 90 degrees
    to see it. However due to wet conditions there was a long
    walk in and I think the dogs could see the right gun station from the back side on the way in.

    There was a strong cross wind right to left.
    Last edited by Wayne Nutt; 10-15-2013 at 05:30 AM.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Swampcollie's Avatar
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    There is the letter of the rules and then there is understanding the purpose and intent of the rules. Even if you run the blind first, the dog and handler are still going to face a level of complexity that Senior dogs are not usually expected to face. This type of experience usually gives Test Committees a good reason to review their proceedures for selecting judges for an event.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Perhaps the rule means to say that as a judge you cannot require the dog to pick up one of the marks, then the blind, then the other mark... if the blind is situated between the marks(?) or even if it is not(?) .Are marks interupted by a blind legal in a Senior HT?
    Yes...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  7. #27
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Yes...Steve S
    Steve,
    when you answer Mr Fallon so directly like this, is your answer based on the rule book,, or based on the possible fact you have run a test or two like this before?

    Trying to understand what is a Senior test and what isnt.


    Gooser

    P,S,
    Same question for /Paul
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 10-15-2013 at 07:35 AM.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    It's like anything else Gooser... it is whatever a pair of judges wants it to be within the rules. Most that I have seen are straightforward marking tests with square water entries and blinds with some factors but not really involving the marks too much.

    Having said that you could get a series with two converging marks, separated by 20 degrees, short bird upwind of a long memory bird and the blind 10 deg downwind and past the whole set up, on a hillside pitching the dogs back into the marks.

    A lot of accomplished MH dogs would probably do shitty work on this one and it's perfectly legal in SH.

    It's a double, the blind is outside the marks and you weren't told what order to pick up the marks in.

    I think that's why there are required apprenticeships and dog handling experience. A lot of what you see is based more on tradition and unwritten standards for performance. Knowledge of those is only gained through experience and time in the game. It's also why there is a required number of judging points for the two judge team (I think).
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 10-15-2013 at 07:50 PM.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Here is what I found in the rule book.


    Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
    tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall
    include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as
    a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,
    and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
    diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations
    should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
    retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
    Hunting Tests.



    So, If Judges, and folks that teach the seminar, read this and Interpret the intent to allow a blind to be run between gun stations first, because no mark has been thrown yet,, OR to run a blind first,, then get to run marks by invitation,, when "Marking is of PRIMARY importance" (seems to me like the BLIND was PRIMARY) Do you all believe they are following "INTENT" or personal opinion?



    Yes, I know I should attend a seminar,, but I would just be there wanting an answere to the same question above. What does the seminar teacher say? "Cause I say so?
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 10-15-2013 at 12:15 PM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  10. #30
    Senior Member Duckquilizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Howard said he couldnt find anything in the rules about Blinds being run between marks.

    Here is what I found in the rule book.


    Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
    tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall
    include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as
    a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,
    and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
    diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations
    should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
    retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
    Hunting Tests.



    So, If Judges, and folks that teach the seminar, read this and Interpret the intent to allow a blind to be run between gun stations first, because no mark has been thrown yet,, OR to run a blind first,, then get to run marks by invitation,, when "Marking is of PRIMARY importance" (seems to me like the BLIND was PRIMARY) Do you all believe they are following "INTENT" or personal opinion?



    Yes, I know I should attend a seminar,, but I would just be there wanting an answere to the same question above. What does the seminar teacher say? "Cause I say so?
    I honestly think often that judges try to do something different than the same ole boring setups. I've not been to a test with the blind up the middle, but have seen a few other "meaty" tests. I really felt like if the test was a straight up 35/60yrd double with a silly 50yrd blind way off to the side, was a serious in-justice to the dogs. It really rings true when you see weak dogs barely pass the simple test. I suppose that's what makes Senior hard to setup/judge for. I would just have to see the other factors to know if the blind up the middle was too much or would more leeway have to be given. Spread between stations, terrain, and wind would have lots of bearing.
    Last edited by Duckquilizer; 10-15-2013 at 09:17 AM.
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