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Thread: Question for akc rules junkies

  1. #31
    Senior Member jacduck's Avatar
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    Since we are going to the rule book a dog must carrry an overall average of 7 with an minimum average on blinds of 5.

    Ch2 Section 1 "Qualifying score in senior and master Retriever Hunting
    Tests, not only must a dog receive an overall average of
    not less than seven (7.0) for the entire test, but it must also
    receive separate, independent average scores of not less
    than five (5.0) in each ability category related to
    marking, as well as separate, independent average scores of not less
    than five (5.0) in each ability category related to blinds."

    The next paragraph is almost never used in my experience. Long waits for call backs!

    "If, at any time during testing, a dog is graded zero (0)
    by two Judges for the same ability, the dog cannot receive
    a Qualifying score and the handler must be informed that
    the dog cannot receive a Qualifying score."

    But that is another discussion.
    John C aka jacduck


    "Duck hunter's minds are like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set."

  2. #32

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    What would qualify as a zero on a blind? If he does not challenge the blind on his initial line but takes the handles and picks up the bird how would that be scored?

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    as this thread drifts away I worry we (some) are very close to running the bus over a couple of judges. We all know or can find out who was in the chairs with the click of a mouse 'cause of Wayne's other thread about the pups first pass.
    middle level hunt test blinds are a bitch to set up. Yes you see the up the middle. And you see the off to the side waters edge sharp angle entry that some dogs can dry land run allmost all the way to. Or the ol' live bird team person take a few steps and chuck so poor Fido is running at a bird crate, just about. Master judges have it made, blinds are mixed into the marking set ups. Poor senior judges must keep them away. But what of the grounds? What if the chunk of marsh and field and puddle of mud the judges are given is a bit, um, limited? Many times a test will have a lot of master dogs and a lot of junior dogs and a handfull of senior, so who gets the lame field? Middle level! Every Time! You got to run the dogs afore the sun sets!
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

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  4. #34
    Senior Member GulfCoast's Avatar
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    I will say that poor grounds can create "problematic" test setups more so at "the middle level" than any other.
    Wm. Mark Edwards
    Pascagoula, MS

    HRCH (500) UH Ellie Mae MH
    SHR Tipsy

  5. #35
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    Mr Gooser -

    I was referring to the fact that tests need to be approved in HRC whereas they are not in AKC. Not only do they not need to be approved, there is no provision for this to even be considered. Instead, the rule book says in Chapter 3, Section 4:

    Section 4. Test Set-Up. The Judges, with paramount regard to Section 1 of this Chapter, shall determine the tests to be given and shall design those tests in order to approximate as nearly as possible the conditions met in true hunting situations. In keeping with this aim, the Judges shall design and enhance hunting situations by utilizing, as naturally as possible, the equipment that would be found in a true upland game or waterfowl hunting
    situation. Strategic placement of numerous decoys, use of camouflaged blinds to conceal guns and throwers, duck boats, duck and goose calls, etc., are necessary adjuncts to Hunting Tests for Retrievers.

    You'll note that the judges have the responsibility for setting up the test and the committee has no role in approval. Further, in Chapter 1, Section 14 we find the words:

    The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests, except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the Judges, and must provide themselves with copies of the latest editions of these books.

    The committee is responsible for putting on the event but the test itself is the sole responsibility of the judges.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  6. #36
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    A dog and handler set up to run the blind. The dog is sent and goes 15 feet before returning to the handler. That's a "0" in the books.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  7. #37
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckquilizer View Post
    I honestly think often that judges try to do something different than the same ole boring setups. I've not been to a test with the blind up the middle, but have seen a few other "meaty" tests. I really felt like if the test was a straight up 35/60yrd double with a silly 50yrd blind way off to the side, was a serious in-justice to the dogs. It really rings true when you see weak dogs barely pass the simple test. I suppose that's what makes Senior hard to setup/judge for. I would just have to see the other factors to know if the blind up the middle was too much or would more leeway have to be given. Spread between stations, terrain, and wind would have lots of bearing.
    Thats fine with me if you admit you are ignoring the written standard... Read the rule!

    If you find Senior boring, not a challenge, silly blind distance, dont Change the standard,, GO RUN SOMETHING MORE CHALLENGING FOR YOU AND YOUR DOG!!!

    How many times during discussions here, many very experienced Judges/ Handlers make the comment "when in doubt. refer to the RULE BOOK?

    Now in your mind the rule doesnt matter,, cause you want the tests more challenging for YOU. You want to run blinds that are not so silly.

    So, dont you think You should go run tests that may be challenging for you,, like Master or maybe even a Qual?

    Why Mess with the Senior level dog??

    Gooser

    Found it!
    Judges responsibility

    Section 7. Judges’ Responsibility. It is strongly
    recommended that clubs select as Judges individuals with broad and extensive background experience in handling
    and working with Retrievers in the field.
    Judges must officiate over all series in their respective
    assignments.
    A Judge shall not handle a dog in another test until the test level (or division of a test level) that he or she is
    judging is fully completed. The intent of this Regulation is
    that a test may not be stopped for a judge to run a dog in
    another test.
    Judges need not set up identical tests when test
    levels are divided.
    A Judge of a Hunting Test shall be familiar with all
    Rules, Regulations and Procedures pertaining to the type
    of Test being conducted. Judges shall be thoroughly familiar
    with the applicable Standards, and shall be responsible
    for judging in compliance with the Rules, Regulations, and
    Standards.
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 10-15-2013 at 12:04 PM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  8. #38
    Senior Member jacduck's Avatar
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    Or a dog is sent and at 30 yards gives you the middle toe and takes off on turkey tracks.
    John C aka jacduck


    "Duck hunter's minds are like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set."

  9. #39
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    So the rules say the blinds, must not be ran inbtw the marks, but I have never read where it says the marks cannot be ran in conjunction after the blind. If you run a blind straight up the middle, before the marks are thrown, there are NO marks to interfere; it's just a blind. If You then run the marks, yes blind suction can interfere, and the dog will actually have to show they marked the falls, and not cave/return to an old blind. You aren't allowed to return to the old fall on a double, is the same skill set that you don't return to an old blind. Seems like a very fair way to run a SH series, and a great way for a dog to demonstrate marking ability. A SH title does have meaning, running the same watered-down non-inventive SH tests, does not test all the different aspects-attributes that make up a complete Senior hunter. The lack of test variety is unfair to both the dogs and the handlers. Such tests do not help with easy transition into Master level tests, where the wheels usually fall off, simply because the dog-handler, can do a basic senior test with ease, but has never seen a B@ll-Buster Senior test. If you can't do a hard senior test, you definitely can't do even a moderate Master test, where anything and everything can happen.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 10-15-2013 at 12:05 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
    "I train dogs, Not papers"

    GMRH HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast)
    MHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
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  10. #40
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    How do you get this,,,,, (your interpretation)

    The committee is responsible for putting on the event but the test itself is the sole responsibility of the judges.


    From this?:

    The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests, except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the Judges, and must provide themselves with copies of the latest editions of these books.

    There are, I suppose, rules that are the sole responsibility of the judges..

    I have a hard time though coming up with some..
    I guess calling a No Bird.
    I guess deciding confusion on the dogs part ( I wish handlers would be given some leeway)
    Weather
    allowing touching of the dog to remove a 10" long thorn in the dogs foot (no shorter though)
    When to scrap the test.

    ect ect..

    In My opinion,, Just cause he is Judge doesnt allow him to change the written standard, Does it??


    So, In essence,, a Hunt test committee. or a a test secretary can suggest to the judges they are not following rules,, correct?


    I am beginning to realize that not only do I not know squat about Dogs,,, I also am beginning to think I cant read!
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 10-15-2013 at 11:51 AM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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