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Thread: Question for akc rules junkies

  1. #51
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    So the rules say the blinds, must not be ran inbtw the marks, but I have never read where it says the marks cannot be ran in conjunction after the blind. If you run a blind straight up the middle, before the marks are thrown, there are NO marks to interfere; it's just a blind. If You then run the marks, yes blind suction can interfere, and the dog will actually have to show they marked the falls, and not cave/return to an old blind. You aren't allowed to return to the old fall on a double, is the same skill set that you don't return to an old blind. Seems like a very fair way to run a SH series, and a great way for a dog to demonstrate marking ability. A SH title does have meaning, running the same watered-down non-inventive SH tests, does not test all the different aspects-attributes that make up a complete Senior hunter. The lack of test variety is unfair to both the dogs and the handlers. Such tests do not help with easy transition into Master level tests, where the wheels usually fall off, simply because the dog-handler, can do a basic senior test with ease, but has never seen a B@ll-Buster Senior test. If you can't do a hard senior test, you definitely can't do even a moderate Master test, where anything and everything can happen.
    I am (hopefully) going to run my first SH a week from Sunday, so keep that in mind with this comment.

    Technically the bolded statement is correct - at least for the first dog. I wonder if this is not a question of letter vs. intent. There are no marks down when the dog is sent for the blind, but there sure is a lot of scent out there on both sides whereas it is usually only on one side. So while the rules as written don't seem to disallow the up-the-middle blind, I wonder if this is what was intended.

    Of course, the simple answer is to train for up-the-middle blinds. Remind me I said that.
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

  2. #52
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    Gooser

    I can't tell if you are purposefully playing devil's advocate or the AKC venue is so difficult to comprehend vis a vis the HRC one or if I'm just not explaining it correctly. Maybe there's even a fourth choice. Dunno.

    In an AKC Hunt Test, the Committee has nothing to do with the elements of a test nor with the approval of any element. They just don't. These are matters of sole concern of the judges. Similarly, there are issues which the judges have no hand in. For instance, in a case of cruelty to a dog, unless a judge witnessed the behavior, s/he'll have nothing to do with the matter. Here's another quote from the book:

    The Hunting Test Committee of a club holding a
    licensed or member club Hunting Test shall have the
    authority to decide upon any matter arising during the run-
    ning of the Hunting Test, except a matter coming within
    the jurisdiction of the Judges.

    The ultimate issue ... I can even scrap a test and start over ... even if it means that we'll be there Monday. I can do anything I need to do to test the dogs against the standard from the holding blinds until the test is complete.

    All that said, on set up day, the judges will commonly have a committee member with them and if so, I'll commonly ask questions like "How's this pond been used in the past?" or "What if we ran the water series first?" or ... "Will we have one, two,or no fliers?" or ...

    However, if the Committee member or whole committee said, "You can't run that test like that with ... " I'd respond, "Certainly I can."

    At that point if they pursued it further, they'd need to get a new judge or they would talk to an AKC rep on the phone. If the AKC rep says, "You can't do that ..." I'd listen to him but not the committee.

    Now, in the off chance that I've still not explained it adequately, we'll just have to leave it at that.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  3. #53
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    IMHO, a really bad idea.

    If that's the only body of water available, run the WB as a seperate series and use the area one of the marks will be thrown from as the point of origin, which should minimize scent interference when the marks are run later on.-Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post

    Of course, the simple answer is to train for up-the-middle blinds. Remind me I said that.
    I'm sure there are many scent pockets in any field, that may tempt any dog, under any circumstance, however a blind is about control. Now perhaps it represents too much control to expect a Senior level dog to pull off a mark that it has seen drop and go for a blind, or run inbtw bird two stations where the dog has already seen marks launched out of. Perhaps that is just too much temptation, to expect appropriate control; at the senior level. Most senior level blinds I see run by or on the outside of at least one scent pocket of a bird that was launched and already picked up. However why cannot one expect a dog to run in control to a blind btw scent pockets, whether they are just out in the field from previous training groups or are scents pockets of marks that the dog doesn't know are going to exist? I don't know if there a difference, but I also haven't seen the setup happen yet. The only times I've seen this up the middle blind scenario, the blind was a separate series. All the dogs ran the blind, then the marks were setup and all the dog ran the marks
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 10-15-2013 at 03:37 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
    "I train dogs, Not papers"

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Steve,
    when you answer Mr Fallon so directly like this, is your answer based on the rule book,, or based on the possible fact you have run a test or two like this before?

    Trying to understand what is a Senior test and what isnt.
    Gooser



    P,S,
    Same question for /Paul
    Strictly book... If there is not a restriction in the book saying "NO" then it is ok to do ....As the OP's question about a blind between the marks in the Sr...Ok if run before the marks are thrown ... There is no between at that point...As far as who has the authority to give the final interpretation on what the rule book is trying to get across to everyone is the AKC reps.. Like them or not ...It is their book...not mine or anyone else...As one person put it in another post " If the gallery isn't whining and complaining you don't have enough test" ...Not to highjack the thread ( if it hasn't all ready happened) can a diversion bird be thrown when the dog is returning with the first bird of the double or does it have to be after the final bird..? I can't find it in the book...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    I'm sure there are many scent pockets in any field, that may tempt any dog, under any circumstance, however a blind is about control. Now perhaps it represents too much control to expect a Senior level dog to pull off a mark that it has seen drop and go for a blind, or run inbtw bird two stations where the dog has already seen marks launched out of. Perhaps that is just too much temptation, to expect appropriate control; at the senior level. Most senior level blinds I see run by or on the outside of at least one scent pocket of a bird that was launched and already picked up. However why cannot one expect a dog to run in control to a blind btw scent pockets, whether they are just out in the field from previous training groups or are scents pockets of marks that the dog doesn't know are going to exist? I don't know if there a difference, but I also haven't seen the setup happen yet. The only times I've seen this up the middle blind scenario, the blind was a separate series. All the dogs ran the blind, then the marks were setup and all the dog ran the marks
    Is a poison bird blind legal ( ok ) to run in a Sr ? I can't find that either ....Please help with all the missing info on what I can't do as a judge....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  7. #57
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    In my opinion we don't expect enough out of our dogs...No matter what level ...Even in field trial dogs....We want to do the least amount of training and get the ribbon on the weekend....As mentioned earlier it appears the show ring mentality has crept into the field games...I only want to see "X" test on the weekend...Not the "my dog can do anything you set up attitude ....bring it on ...we are ready" ...not cocky just confident....Step on the marks and line the blinds should be the goal of all trainers....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  8. #58
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Is a poison bird blind legal ( ok ) to run in a Sr ? I can't find that either ....Please help with all the missing info on what I can't do as a judge....Steve S
    No it is not!!! You cannot run a blind between the marks in senior. Per Jerry Mann - That applies to time also!.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post
    IMHO, a really bad idea.

    If that's the only body of water available, run the WB as a seperate series and use the area one of the marks will be thrown from as the point of origin, which should minimize scent interference when the marks are run later on.-Paul
    That is the best answer IMHO. And exactly what Jerry said at the last seminar I attended.

  9. #59
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    [QUOTE=Doug Main;1154289]No it is not!!! You cannot run a blind between the marks in senior. Per Jerry Mann - That applies to time also!.


    What does a poison bird blind have to do with between the marks..? Please read carefully... If the dog runs the marks first, the blind is not to be between them ...If the blind is run first that does not apply....Please clarify " That applies to time also!.".... Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I couldn't find the above in the rule book. It might be there I just didn't find it. I did find the following which I knew was there:
    Howard,
    The quote is taken from an article that Performance Events published in Retriever Trial News though I don't have the original article. It has been reprinted in just about all the EE catalogs I've seen for the past year or so. (I tried to get RTN to send me a copy of the article so I could share it with my test committee but it got more complicated than I had time to deal with.) In other words only the judges can determine test set-ups and scoring. But if they do something against the rules, the Event Committee has the responsibility to step in.
    As to the original intent of the thread it's my opinion that a cold blind run between mark stations violates both the letter and spirit of rules for senior dogs. But, I could be wrong and would certainly defer to a determination by the AKC.

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