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Thread: Question for akc rules junkies

  1. #61
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Is a poison bird blind legal ( ok ) to run in a Sr ? I can't find that either ....Please help with all the missing info on what I can't do as a judge....Steve S
    I would think that if you could do it, the "poison" would have to be a diversion bird, and not one of the marks, as the marks must be considered a true double. I have seen diversion birds-bull-dogs thrown in SH tests after a mark or blind has been picked up, I have not seen a poison scenario where the diversion was thrown before the blind, and the dog no'ed off the diversion. I don't ever recall reading anything in the book, saying you couldn't No off a diversion bird to run a blind, then pick up the diversion. Interesting...Others are right you had better wear your kevlar . Last Judging seminar I was at it all boiled down to the most important rule, "Everything not specifically stated in the rule book is at the Judges Discretion." Basically judge is GAWD and the only thing the Hunt test committee could do about it was not invite said Judge back, perhaps call the Rep if they were available (they usually side with the judge, unless some direct rule is being broken), or perhaps file a complaint, to be examined well after the event.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 10-15-2013 at 05:42 PM.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    I would think that if you could do it, the "poison" would have to be a diversion bird, and not one of the marks, as the marks must be considered a true double. I have seen diversion birds-bull-dogs thrown in SH tests after a mark or blind has been picked up, I have not seen a poison scenario where the diversion was thrown before the blind, and the dog no'ed off the diversion. I don't ever recall reading anything in the book, saying you couldn't No off a diversion bird to run a blind, then pick up the diversion. Interesting...Others are right you had better wear your kevlar . Last Judging seminar I was at it all boiled down to the most important rule, "Everything not specifically stated in the rule book is at the Judges Discretion." Basically judge is GAWD and the only thing the Hunt test committee could do about it was not invite said Judge back, perhaps call the Rep if they were available (they usually side with the judge, unless some direct rule is being broken), or perhaps file a complaint, to be examined well after the event.
    I have never seen or set up a poison bird blind for a Sr dog but it is possible that some day someone will...I remember when Q blinds were always out side the marks too...I agree it would probably be a separate bird from the double thrown as the marks, but that is not to say the marks could be interrupted with a blind just as it is in the master...or Open or Am....(Bolding)That is the way it should be ....judges discretion as to the test set up...For all the possible things that a judge could do, a simple blind run before the marks is pretty mild...Steve S
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Sundown49 aka Otey B's Avatar
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    There was a video posted of a test where the blind was run FIRST> From the line shot with a video camera it looked as if both bird stations were well camoed. There was about a 90 degree separation in the marks after the blind was run. There was a long discussion then on I believe here or on the Refuge about the test. I took my seminar not long after that and asked Jerry Mann about this. Until the marks are thrown there are NO marks yet. It was perfectly legal to run the blind FIRST as long as no marks were thrown for that dog on the line. Gulfcoast was at the same seminar and can correct me if I misquoted what I wrote down and heard.
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Splash_em's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundown49 aka Otey B View Post
    There was a video posted of a test where the blind was run FIRST> From the line shot with a video camera it looked as if both bird stations were well camoed. There was about a 90 degree separation in the marks after the blind was run. There was a long discussion then on I believe here or on the Refuge about the test. I took my seminar not long after that and asked Jerry Mann about this. Until the marks are thrown there are NO marks yet. It was perfectly legal to run the blind FIRST as long as no marks were thrown for that dog on the line. Gulfcoast was at the same seminar and can correct me if I misquoted what I wrote down and heard.
    I marshalled and ran the test you are referencing Otey. None, 0, nottta single dog had a problem with it.

    Bird was thrown out into some lilly pads and you ran the blind 1st. Marks were well seperated but would have been very tight had the blind not been ran 1st. Go bird was closest to where the blind had been to eliminate the possibility of most dogs trying to return to the area.

    Same seminar as you and GC and yes, Jerry agreed 100% within all rules either written or implied. Given the choices of the other setups, this was by far the fairest setup they could have used.
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  5. #65
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    Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
    tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
    diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
    retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
    Hunting Tests
    .


    Pay close attention to how the paragraph above is structured

    Notice that It says "In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
    retrieve. "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
    Hunting Tests. "

    It does not say "Blinds shall not be run between THE marks"... a distinction with a difference.

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    Last edited by john fallon; 10-15-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Fallon sometimes someone with your dogged attention to detail is useful! Hope all is well!

    So now then... does it mean placement, or order or retrieves or both?

    The test as stated is still legal though LOL
    Darrin Greene

  7. #67
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    Maybe I don't know enough to know I should be scared, but I fully agree with you that a good SR dog should be under enough control to run such a blind, particularly if all the dogs run the blind first and then come back for the marks. Again, remind me I said that when we blow up on a setup like this.

    My only question was whether this was one of those things that you can do under the letter of the law but you probably shouldn't given the intent of the law. My argument probably breaks down a little given the fact that this is apparently not a new issue and there has been no change to the rules to specifically say you can't do it.

    Good discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    I'm sure there are many scent pockets in any field, that may tempt any dog, under any circumstance, however a blind is about control. Now perhaps it represents too much control to expect a Senior level dog to pull off a mark that it has seen drop and go for a blind, or run inbtw bird two stations where the dog has already seen marks launched out of. Perhaps that is just too much temptation, to expect appropriate control; at the senior level. Most senior level blinds I see run by or on the outside of at least one scent pocket of a bird that was launched and already picked up. However why cannot one expect a dog to run in control to a blind btw scent pockets, whether they are just out in the field from previous training groups or are scents pockets of marks that the dog doesn't know are going to exist? I don't know if there a difference, but I also haven't seen the setup happen yet. The only times I've seen this up the middle blind scenario, the blind was a separate series. All the dogs ran the blind, then the marks were setup and all the dog ran the marks
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  8. #68
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    There are doubles, and then there are DOUBLES. There are blinds, and then there are BLINDS.

    At the Senior level of testing the participants should be challenged by the non-capitalized versions of both. If their dogs were capable of doing Master level tests, they would enter Master.

    Why some people would actually set up a poison bird blind at this level is a mystery to me. -Paul
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  9. #69
    Senior Member Joe Brakke's Avatar
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    Running a blind is your and the dog's opportunity to show the judge that you have a passable level of training through cooperation, control and teamwork. This concern has been ran up the pole more than once and the AKC will support this situation. The reason is that since the marks have not been presented to the working dog, running the blind first you eliminate the issue of "between the marks". You can run the bind up the middle but before the marks are presented. Normally this is not done or preferred but due to available water options, it may need to be done. I have done it once at a senior level test.

    If forced into this situation, the judges should consider running their land and water blinds together in a separate set up.

    As a judge I try to find my blind first in the set up then look to some good marking opportunities paying special attention to the flyer and then work the bird placement of each mark. Its all about trying to set up something that will allow the judge an opportunity to judge your dog in all of the abilities. No tricks and running a blind up the middle is not a trick. Your dog should show control on all of its blind work. If the marks are properly placed and spaced minimal scenting conditions should arise. Regardless, running a blind off the back side of a live flyer gunner station on the outside of a double is typical and may be more difficult. Suction is all over the place in this case. Again, its about control and cooperation. Yes your dog may head to the gunner station but you are judged on how well did it listen and obey your commands to get it back on line and to ignore that area.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Back in the day my first dog and I went four for four in AKC senior and four for five in NAHRA intermediate. Some test were harder than others, nothing over the top and nothing so easy I felt it was a cinch. My feeling after each title, which was proved when hunting season started, was that this SH-WR titled dog was a solid all around hunting dog one would be proud to hunt over. Back then well over half the dogs in senior flat out didn't handle. Judges didn't need to set up super challenging blinds, the purpose of SH was to demonstrate competence on the typical. Lind you might find hunting.

    Regarding setting up a blind in between two gun stations that haven't thrown yet, that could be harder than running after the marks are picked up. Nothing kills my dog like a hidden gunner my dog spots enroute to a blind. Senior Hunter blinds shouldn't be anywhere near a master in difficulty. The purpose of a SH title isn't to serve as a bridge to Master, it's a stand alone title that tells us something about that dog as a hunting companion.

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