Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 10-15-2013 at 06:42 PM.
"They's Just DAWGS"; "I train dogs, Not papers"
"Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
GMRH-I HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast) Rip. July-2014
GMHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
MHR HR Storm SH (Beginning Upland & Waterfowl Enthusiast)
"Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters
There was a video posted of a test where the blind was run FIRST> From the line shot with a video camera it looked as if both bird stations were well camoed. There was about a 90 degree separation in the marks after the blind was run. There was a long discussion then on I believe here or on the Refuge about the test. I took my seminar not long after that and asked Jerry Mann about this. Until the marks are thrown there are NO marks yet. It was perfectly legal to run the blind FIRST as long as no marks were thrown for that dog on the line. Gulfcoast was at the same seminar and can correct me if I misquoted what I wrote down and heard.
My Dad said to me ."Son, a man just needs three things to be happy....A good dog, a good gun and a good wife.....Thank God I have all three
Sundown's Boss of Delta Marsh JH (Louie QAA X Delta MH)
Traveling Through The Graded Timber JH (2012 NAFC Trav X Timber MH QAA)
Sundown's Ruff And Tuff (Boss JH X Lil Bit) best pup I have ever raised
Home of HRCH Sundown's Loaded To The Maxx (FC AFC Jamie X Dixie QAA) RIP
Bird was thrown out into some lilly pads and you ran the blind 1st. Marks were well seperated but would have been very tight had the blind not been ran 1st. Go bird was closest to where the blind had been to eliminate the possibility of most dogs trying to return to the area.
Same seminar as you and GC and yes, Jerry agreed 100% within all rules either written or implied. Given the choices of the other setups, this was by far the fairest setup they could have used.
GRHRCH UH Hammer MH ***
GRHRCH UH Zeus
Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
Pay close attention to how the paragraph above is structured
Notice that It says "In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
retrieve. "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
Hunting Tests. "
It does not say "Blinds shall not be run between THE marks"... a distinction with a difference.
When not where regards
Last edited by john fallon; 10-15-2013 at 10:07 PM.
"i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06
"A Good Dog is a Good Dog"
Fallon sometimes someone with your dogged attention to detail is useful! Hope all is well!
So now then... does it mean placement, or order or retrieves or both?
The test as stated is still legal though LOL
Maybe I don't know enough to know I should be scared, but I fully agree with you that a good SR dog should be under enough control to run such a blind, particularly if all the dogs run the blind first and then come back for the marks. Again, remind me I said that when we blow up on a setup like this.
My only question was whether this was one of those things that you can do under the letter of the law but you probably shouldn't given the intent of the law. My argument probably breaks down a little given the fact that this is apparently not a new issue and there has been no change to the rules to specifically say you can't do it.
HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig MH "Jimmy"
There are doubles, and then there are DOUBLES. There are blinds, and then there are BLINDS.
At the Senior level of testing the participants should be challenged by the non-capitalized versions of both. If their dogs were capable of doing Master level tests, they would enter Master.
Why some people would actually set up a poison bird blind at this level is a mystery to me. -Paul
there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.
Running a blind is your and the dog's opportunity to show the judge that you have a passable level of training through cooperation, control and teamwork. This concern has been ran up the pole more than once and the AKC will support this situation. The reason is that since the marks have not been presented to the working dog, running the blind first you eliminate the issue of "between the marks". You can run the bind up the middle but before the marks are presented. Normally this is not done or preferred but due to available water options, it may need to be done. I have done it once at a senior level test.
If forced into this situation, the judges should consider running their land and water blinds together in a separate set up.
As a judge I try to find my blind first in the set up then look to some good marking opportunities paying special attention to the flyer and then work the bird placement of each mark. Its all about trying to set up something that will allow the judge an opportunity to judge your dog in all of the abilities. No tricks and running a blind up the middle is not a trick. Your dog should show control on all of its blind work. If the marks are properly placed and spaced minimal scenting conditions should arise. Regardless, running a blind off the back side of a live flyer gunner station on the outside of a double is typical and may be more difficult. Suction is all over the place in this case. Again, its about control and cooperation. Yes your dog may head to the gunner station but you are judged on how well did it listen and obey your commands to get it back on line and to ignore that area.
HRCH Bella's Devine Independence SH "Indy"
Lakota Ridge Sage JH "Sage"
SHR APR KB's Lakota Ridge Delaney JH "Del"
RIP 2014 Lakotaridge Heartsome Tanner SH "Tanner"
RIP 2012 Oryan of Cork "Orion"
"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment."
Back in the day my first dog and I went four for four in AKC senior and four for five in NAHRA intermediate. Some test were harder than others, nothing over the top and nothing so easy I felt it was a cinch. My feeling after each title, which was proved when hunting season started, was that this SH-WR titled dog was a solid all around hunting dog one would be proud to hunt over. Back then well over half the dogs in senior flat out didn't handle. Judges didn't need to set up super challenging blinds, the purpose of SH was to demonstrate competence on the typical. Lind you might find hunting.
Regarding setting up a blind in between two gun stations that haven't thrown yet, that could be harder than running after the marks are picked up. Nothing kills my dog like a hidden gunner my dog spots enroute to a blind. Senior Hunter blinds shouldn't be anywhere near a master in difficulty. The purpose of a SH title isn't to serve as a bridge to Master, it's a stand alone title that tells us something about that dog as a hunting companion.