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Thread: Question for akc rules junkies

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
    tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
    diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
    retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
    Hunting Tests
    .


    Pay close attention to how the paragraph above is structured

    Notice that It says "In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
    retrieve. "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
    Hunting Tests. "

    It does not say "Blinds shall not be run between THE marks"... a distinction with a difference.

    When not where regards
    john
    So John , Are you implying that interrupted marks is not allowed ? Most of us know the intent of this statement means the blind is to be on the outside of the marks... When the intent of a statement is unknown a problem will usually develop...Just as the defining that multiple marks means two birds thrown before the dog is sent to retrieve ....some didn't even understand what multiple marks are....Now we have to run 2 triples...spelled out in black and white so no confusion can arise...Some day we will have a script to follow for each level .....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    So John , Are you implying that interrupted marks is not allowed ? Most of us know the intent of this statement means the blind is to be on the outside of the marks... When the intent of a statement is unknown a problem will usually develop...Just as the defining that multiple marks means two birds thrown before the dog is sent to retrieve ....some didn't even understand what multiple marks are....Now we have to run 2 triples...spelled out in black and white so no confusion can arise...Some day we will have a script to follow for each level .....Steve S
    The rule as written does not require much interpratation.

    When, in discribing a double mark, something/someone says... In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. And then, staying in context, further amplifies the statement by saying, "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests."
    By its position in the paragraph and by using "between marks" (when) rather then "between THE marks" (where) , with this verbage the writer is telling us that these marks are to be then picked up without a blind being used as an interuption.

    So, if it is not addresses elsewhere, the rules as writen are mute on where blinds are allowed to be run in a Sr HT and as such this remains a matter of judges discretion.......

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 10-16-2013 at 03:57 AM.
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    The rule as written does not require much interpratation.

    When, in discribing a double mark, something/someone says... In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. And then, staying in context, further amplifies the statement by saying, "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests."
    By its position in the paragraph and by using "between marks" (when) rather then "between THE marks" (where) , with this verbage the writer is telling us that these marks are to be then picked up without a blind being used as an interuption.

    So, if it is not addresses elsewhere, the rules as writen are mute on where blinds are allowed to be run in a Sr HT and as such this remains a matter of judges discretion.......

    john
    Yup. That's why there are judges and then there's a group of people who have a license to judge. Too few of the former and too many of the latter, I'm afraid.....-Paul
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  4. #74
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    After 2500 views and 70 posts some say yes and some say no. Then there is the Fallon view. Is there a way to get AKC to explain the rule?
    Wayne Nutt
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  5. #75
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    After 2500 views and 70 posts some say yes and some say no. Then there is the Fallon view. Is there a way to get AKC to explain the rule?
    I guess it's one of those rules that is just ambiguous enough to flaunt. Running a senior blind up the middle between two gun stations is certainly more difficult than running a blind off the side away from the marks, so we seem to be violating the spirit of the rule as a minimum. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

    I think the larger point here is the issue of evolving standards in hunt test. It is pretty obvious to me from reading this whole thread, that the average guy is training his or her dog more efficiently, reaching a higher standard with greater ease than was possible twenty years ago. I don't think that fact by and of itself should change the way a senior hunt test is judged. If 90% of senior dogs running today can easily do the typical senior as seen in 1995, does that obligate judges to ramp up the difficulty of the test, or pass a higher percentage of dogs? I believe the latter. I don't believe the SH title is cheapens just because it is more easily achieved by the average guy using a modern training program, it just means there are a lot more good dogs out in the marsh come hunting season.

  6. #76
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I guess it's one of those rules that is just ambiguous enough to flaunt. Running a senior blind up the middle between two gun stations is certainly more difficult than running a blind off the side away from the marks, so we seem to be violating the spirit of the rule as a minimum. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

    I think the larger point here is the issue of evolving standards in hunt test. It is pretty obvious to me from reading this whole thread, that the average guy is training his or her dog more efficiently, reaching a higher standard with greater ease than was possible twenty years ago. I don't think that fact by and of itself should change the way a senior hunt test is judged. If 90% of senior dogs running today can easily do the typical senior as seen in 1995, does that obligate judges to ramp up the difficulty of the test, or pass a higher percentage of dogs? I believe the latter. I don't believe the SH title is cheapens just because it is more easily achieved by the average guy using a modern training program, it just means there are a lot more good dogs out in the marsh come hunting season.
    Ditto. Good post.
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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    The rule as written does not require much interpratation.

    When, in discribing a double mark, something/someone says... In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. And then, staying in context, further amplifies the statement by saying, "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests."
    By its position in the paragraph and by using "between marks" (when) rather then "between THE marks" (where) , with this verbage the writer is telling us that these marks are to be then picked up without a blind being used as an interuption.

    So, if it is not addresses elsewhere, the rules as writen are mute on where blinds are allowed to be run in a Sr HT and as such this remains a matter of judges discretion.......

    john
    I see your point and agree with it...Words have meaning ....This point has never been brought up before to my knowledge...The intent as addressed in all the seminars and discussions has been on the where not the when...Good catch there John....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  8. #78
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Mr Fallon!

    That was pure excellence..
    Even I understood that...
    Makes perfect sence to me.

    If however I ever judge, (I wont) I will not expect a Senior level dog to run a blind Placed between two seperated guns stations with birds, live and dead on the ground,realizing it doesn't make a bit of difference weather you run it first, Last , or tomorrow

    I would think I could place a blind, separate of the marks, OR outside of them, and that by using even MINIMAL factors in route, have the dog and handler show me reasonable control...Not Master control..

    I believe in the step program..

    I have personally run the 13 step program several times,,, It seems to be work nicely to follow a progression...
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 10-16-2013 at 08:10 AM.
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  9. #79
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    John Robinson......

    Very nicely said
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  10. #80
    Senior Member BBnumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    The rule as written does not require much interpratation.

    When, in discribing a double mark, something/someone says... In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. And then, staying in context, further amplifies the statement by saying, "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests."
    By its position in the paragraph and by using "between marks" (when) rather then "between THE marks" (where) , with this verbage the writer is telling us that these marks are to be then picked up without a blind being used as an interuption.

    So, if it is not addresses elsewhere, the rules as writen are mute on where blinds are allowed to be run in a Sr HT and as such this remains a matter of judges discretion.......

    john
    Although I do see your point in regard to context, I do not necessarily agree with the when/where statement.

    I will walk between cars (where, but non specific). I will walk between THE cars (where, but specific to some previously mentioned cars).

    Words DO have meaning, but they can have several meaning even in a single context.

    The rule could be clarified to say:

    "Blinds shall not be run after a set of marks have been presented to a dog, but prior to those marks being retrieved"

    OR

    "Blinds shall not be located between marks"

    or some other wording that better specifies the intent of the rule
    -=#David

    Well, this started off as a really interesting thread. Too bad we couldn't keep it that way. (Rick_C 2009, Classic RTF)
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