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Thread: Question for akc rules junkies

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    What sucks though is they DONT say something like that,, and it leaves Huge interpretational opinions open,, and as such, the handler is the one who suffers, cause he doesnt know by reading the rules, what to expect,, OR he just says "screw it" and runs master.

    I think most here agree that in TRAINING you TRAIN above the level you are thinking about running. So,, a Senior dog, probably has the training, and talent to run one of these tests, BUT THATS NOT THE POINT! The different levels are for Progression. Maybe as a handelr, you want to guage how solid your dogs work is compared to the Senior written standard. NOT what someones OPINION is about needing to challenge dogs more,, or setting up a Ball buster tests just to proove he can...
    I dont believe a Senior test should be a Master minus one mark.

    I wish I had a dog , and I wish that dog had a handler that could COMPETE at a higher level (FT) because the more things change,, COMPETITION makes far more sense to me now..

    Gooser
    Field Trials have fewer gimmicks and goofyness going on. Way easier for the handler to focus on the dog and not the props and tricks that go along with a hunt test IMO.

  2. #92
    Senior Member jacduck's Avatar
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    I know it is against the rules but I did it anyway. I contacted the AKC and got this reply from Mr Mann.

    "Mr. John,

    The official interpretation of the Regulations is that blinds in "Senior" tests may not be run between (physical location) the two marks of the double on either land or water.

    While it may not be in the best interest of the judges to do so (when considering whether or not they want to be invited for future judging assignments) there is no Regulation against a judge/s requiring that a blind be picked up after one of the two marks has first been retrieved and before the second mark is retrieved!

    I hope this helps with the clarification!!

    Thanks,

    Jerry D. Mann
    Field Director
    Sporting Breeds"
    John C aka jacduck

    Do you really want to increase entries at the Junior Hunt Test level? Simply put a limit on entries and everyone will flock to JR and fight over how to get in and what to change to make it fair for all !!!!!

    "Duck hunter's minds are like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set."

  3. #93
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    Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
    tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
    diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
    retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
    Hunting Tests.



    Even though the the last sentence of the above paragraph when read in conjunction with the next to the last sentence states what[B] could [/] be construed as a prohibition to do so... The AKC has spoken, so to extrapolate

    Is it then permisable to interrupt one of the two required double marks with a double blind consisting of one land blind and one water blind?

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 10-16-2013 at 05:14 PM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  4. #94
    Member duckdogs167's Avatar
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    Gooser I totally with your last statement there. Believe me I have ran Sr test that were hard then a master going on at same time. As I have stated earlier as a handler and a judge I believe in challenging dogs. But be fair about.

  5. #95
    Member duckdogs167's Avatar
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    I can say this. Most of time when we all run into this. Key words there is MOST. You have the most points carrying judge trying to impress their co-judge. Or a Master level judge not toning down from Master level. I really didn't want to make that statement but it's true because I have personally witness it as a judge when I first started judging. I spoke my piece to those judges an some agree an change setups an others didn't agree with me. One even over ruled me on a setup because they were high point judge. I have noted not to judge or run dogs under judges like that.

  6. #96
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacduck View Post
    I know it is against the rules but I did it anyway. I contacted the AKC and got this reply from Mr Mann.

    "Mr. John,

    The official interpretation of the Regulations is that blinds in "Senior" tests may not be run between (physical location) the two marks of the double on either land or water.

    While it may not be in the best interest of the judges to do so (when considering whether or not they want to be invited for future judging assignments) there is no Regulation against a judge/s requiring that a blind be picked up after one of the two marks has first been retrieved and before the second mark is retrieved!

    I hope this helps with the clarification!!

    Thanks,

    Jerry D. Mann
    Field Director
    Sporting Breeds"

    I GIVE UP!

    I am more confused now than ever.

    Before someone says " Gooser , do we need to draw you a picture"?


    Will some body PLEASE draw Gooser a picture?
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
    tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
    diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
    defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
    retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
    Hunting Tests.



    Even though the the last sentence of the above paragraph when read in conjunction with the next to the last sentence states what[B] could [/] be construed as a prohibition to do so... The AKC has spoken, so to extrapolate

    Is it then permisable to interrupt one of the two required double marks with a double blind consisting of one land blind and one water blind?

    john
    The Field Rep from the AKC just said it was permissible; however, it's un-necessary to do so to find out which dogs deserve a Senior pass and ribbon.

    Senior Judges shouldn't be afraid to judge. Those that are, are forced to eliminate with over the top tests. In senior, the dogs which are not sufficiently trained will fail a difficult, straight up test. You don't need to do this kind of stuff.

    There are many people who participate in Senior level tests who have no aspiration to run Master tests. Interrupted marks were the 'test du jour' in region 1 Master tests this past year, so why do it in Senior?-Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    I also agree with Gooser. Each level is its own level with its own requirements. Demonstrate the skills for that level and your good. As a judge its up to me to set a fair test that demonstrates that dogs ability based on its level. Shame on me as a judge for not doing that.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

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    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  9. #99
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    I'm with gooser. Did the Mann say u can't run between two gun stations of a double before the marks are thrown? Or not? Is this different than what the Mann said in the seminar attended by GC and others?
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

  10. #100
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    REmember,, I am NOT COMPLAINING.. I willtrain for what I need to to pass a test,,, But,,


    What on earth is the thinking from AKC officials to require a dog in testing to see a diversion bird ON ITS WAY OUT on a blind retrieve.

    A SENIOR DOG! A dog that most of us have spent considerable amount of time getting them to have good blind attitude, to RUN STRAIGHT as sent, only then in testing to have a judge deliberately erode that momentum with a diversion on a dogs route TO a blind?

    I just dont get this at ALL for a Senior dog.

    A diversion bird on the RETURN of a mark or a Blind is FINE with me I get it,,, But why with young dogs,as the dog is going??? ON A BLIND??? The part of a dogs training we work so hard at getting them to GO,,, and then stay straight??
    I mean really,, Is this the only way you can come up with to test control?

    Rule book says the following.


    Section 25. Diversion Birds and Shots. A diversion
    shot is a shot in which no bird is thrown, and shall
    only be fired in Senior and Master Tests.
    Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve either
    after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is returning
    from the blind retrieve; however, diversion birds shall
    only appear on marks when the dog is returning from a
    retrieve.
    Diversion birds shall always be initiated in front of
    the working dog. The diversion bird is not a mark but
    constitutes a trainability situation. It is always retrieved
    by the working dog. Diversion birds shall be shot or
    thrown when the working dog is in a location that it
    should be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air
    and as it falls.
    Section 26. Weather. Weather is an important
    consideration for the hunting test event committee.
    The safety of participants and animals is of utmost
    importance. Extreme weather such as lightening, strong
    winds, heat or cold, snow or heavy rain can create
    hazardous conditions. The hunting test event committee,
    in consultation with the judges, has the responsibility to
    decide if an event should be halted due to weather and
    at what point the event shall resume. If a weather delay
    results in an entrant being unable to participate, the
    refund of entry fees, in whole or in part, will be at the
    discretion of the event committee. If an entire event or
    part of an event is cancelled due to weather, the refund
    of entry fees, in whole or in part, will be at the discretion
    of the event committee.
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 10-17-2013 at 12:13 PM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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