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Thread: Question for akc rules junkies

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    I think that there is a difference between a test that is too hard for the particular class of dog (e.g. under the arc poison bird blind in Qualifying) and a test that is intended to trick a dog (e.g. dry guns in a marking test)

    It seems that most people here are concerned that certain tests are inappropriately difficult for Senior level dogs - not that the judges are employing a deceptive technique.
    And some just want come and pick up the ribbons ...Some have higher expectations of dogs ability than others...A blind is about control ...The dog should sit on a whistle and take a cast.. They may need a few more whistles than the master dog does to complete the same blind...Natural hazards include points, islands,logs,stick ups and the like...Not just open water across the 35 yard pond to the bank ,which is what a up the middle water blind before the marks usually is ...Steve S
    Last edited by steve schreiner; 10-20-2013 at 06:19 PM.
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    I haven't judged much but have set up lots of training scenarios. Sometimes I will setup thinking it is straight forward and the dogs do terrible.
    I don't think judges set out to trick or fail dogs. They do like me some time and don't realize how deceptive the setup is.
    A judge recently asked me what I thought of the land series. I told him I thought the blind was difficult and he replied yes it was deceptively so. I thought that was an honest response.
    Wayne, I don't believe there is a single judge that can honestly say they never regret a set up for some reason..I have mine for sure...I always remember it at every event too....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Here's another passage from the rule book:

    Gooser doesnt believe a Bird station with BB sitting in it 100 yrds away from the line, with Birds in Crates , Or dead in buckets are NATURAL Distractions.


    How is a Gun Station a Natural distraction as defined above in the rules??

    I am still lost.

    Gooser
    How much more natural can you get than bird scent..? Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    I'm not a fan of second hand information... If the AKC has a position on the blind between the marks matter, It should be sent out as an insert to the rule book.

    john
    John , this was resolve way back...You gave us the correct interpretation of the rule concerning the when and where...Steve S
    Last edited by steve schreiner; 10-20-2013 at 06:33 PM.
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    How much more natural can you get than bird scent..? Steve S

    And so you all see the problem.

    Steve reads this from the rules:

    "On blind retrieves, wherever possible, the Judges shall
    plan their hunting situations taking advantage of hazards,
    such as islands, decoys, points of land, sandbars, ditches,
    hedges, small bushes, adjacent heavy cover, and rolling
    terrain
    .

    Then HE decides to interpret it to include birds laying on the ground to deliberately distract a young dog, even though the RULES give VERY SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of their suggestions of what a GOOD judge should use..
    Steve wants to inject HIS opinion of what a Senior dog should be capable of. He then wants to attack folks that read the rules, and expect to have a fair test presented to them by representatives of AKC, by calling them ribbon chasers... Its NOT about YOU steve!

    I know for a fact, Ted can set up a blind with a bird placed in the middle of a road,, and you will pull your hair out tyin to keep the dog on line(In the middle of the road) challenging that blind..

    The simple ditch on either side of the road is the distraction... You will very quickly get your answers if a dog can sit, and take a cast... and carry it.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  6. #126
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    And some just want come and pick up the ribbons ...Some have higher expectations of dogs ability than others...A blind is about control ...The dog should sit on a whistle and take a cast.. They may need a few more whistles than the master dog does to complete the same blind...Natural hazards include points, islands,logs,stick ups and the like...Not just open water across the 35 yard pond to the bank ,which is what a up the middle water blind before the marks usually is ...Steve S
    The issue I'm having with you is it seems that you are advocating for judges and handlers to expect more of a SH level dog than the standard calls for. I remember Senior blinds being quite basic as these dogs and handlers were in the transition level of training. The test basically culled out the dogs that couldn't handle period, which was the majority.

    None of us are arguing for cheap ribbons, we just feel that judges should set up test in the spirit of the Standard as written. I am speaking in general, not some rare circumstance where due to poor grounds or such, the judges hands are tied.

  7. #127
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Back when my first dog and I were passing Senior hunt test, but nowhere near ready for Master, my dog was a solid duck hunter. He marked well and handled on 100 yard blinds across the pond. The guys I hunted with certainly considered him a Working Retriever, the appropriately named NAHRA title he also earned that summer.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    And so you all see the problem.

    Steve reads this from the rules:

    "On blind retrieves, wherever possible, the Judges shall
    plan their hunting situations taking advantage of hazards,
    such as islands, decoys, points of land, sandbars, ditches,
    hedges, small bushes, adjacent heavy cover, and rolling
    terrain
    .

    Then HE decides to interpret it to include birds laying on the ground to deliberately distract a young dog, even though the RULES give VERY SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of their suggestions of what a GOOD judge should use..
    Where did this come from ? That was an old field trial trick to stake birds down way of line to get dogs hung up and not cast off...not me...Steve s


    Steve wants to inject HIS opinion of what a Senior dog should be capable of. He then wants to attack folks that read the rules, and expect to have a fair test presented to them by representatives of AKC, by calling them ribbon chasers...My opinion doesn't count..I judge by the book ...If it is allowed by the rules there should not be a problem... as Its NOT about YOU steve!You got that one right ...It is about the dogs and their abilities to perform...Steve S

    I know for a fact, Ted can set up a blind with a bird placed in the middle of a road,, and you will pull your hair out tyin to keep the dog on line(In the middle of the road) challenging that blind.. And it is said a good judge can set up a test on the Wal-Mart parking lot too....Steve S

    The simple ditch on either side of the road is the distraction... You will very quickly get your answers if a dog can sit, and take a cast... and carry it.
    And dogs like to run down the middle of the road or path so we do all kinds of angle drills to to counter act their natural desires...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    The issue I'm having with you is it seems that you are advocating for judges and handlers to expect more of a SH level dog than the standard calls for. I remember Senior blinds being quite basic as these dogs and handlers were in the transition level of training. The test basically culled out the dogs that couldn't handle period, which was the majority.

    None of us are arguing for cheap ribbons, we just feel that judges should set up test in the spirit of the Standard as written. I am speaking in general, not some rare circumstance where due to poor grounds or such, the judges hands are tied.
    No. I'm not advocating the dog perform more than the standard..Just up too it...Some judges ( and trainers) have higher expectations for dogs performance than others...Just look at all the test you have seen run , some or tougher ,harder or what ever words you want to describe them with than others that were just give me test...I have never seen a hard blind when it was run between the marks ( as some want to describe it ) that had any suction created by the placement of the two marks...If a Sr or Jr dog is expected to run marks just as long as the master dogs, can't we assume they(SR) should be able to do blinds just as long ..? With a little more leniency than a master dog though ... I agree 100 % that test should be set up in the spirit of the standard as written ...We all don't agree on what that standard of performance is though...do we ? A good job in one person's eyes is poor or excellent in another person...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  10. #130
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Steve responded to my comment as follows:
    Steves question in red.

    Then HE decides to interpret it to include birds laying on the ground to deliberately distract a young dog, even though the RULES give VERY SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of their suggestions of what a GOOD judge should use..
    Where did this come from ? That was an old field trial trick to stake birds down way of line to get dogs hung up and not cast off...not me...Steve s

    Steve I am talking about live ducks in crates at the flyer station, and the dead birds at the memory bird station. The TWO stations you want to require a Senior dog to run a blind between..
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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