I know it is against the rules but I did it anyway. I contacted the AKC and got this reply from Mr Mann.
The official interpretation of the Regulations is that blinds in "Senior" tests may not be run between (physical location) the two marks of the double on either land or water.
While it may not be in the best interest of the judges to do so (when considering whether or not they want to be invited for future judging assignments) there is no Regulation against a judge/s requiring that a blind be picked up after one of the two marks has first been retrieved and before the second mark is retrieved!
I hope this helps with the clarification!!
Jerry D. Mann
John Cottenham aka jacduck in many circles before the internet
"Duck hunter's minds are like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set."
Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
Even though the the last sentence of the above paragraph when read in conjunction with the next to the last sentence states what[B] could [/] be construed as a prohibition to do so... The AKC has spoken, so to extrapolate
Is it then permisable to interrupt one of the two required double marks with a double blind consisting of one land blind and one water blind?
Last edited by john fallon; 10-16-2013 at 05:14 PM.
"i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06
"A Good Dog is a Good Dog"
Gooser I totally with your last statement there. Believe me I have ran Sr test that were hard then a master going on at same time. As I have stated earlier as a handler and a judge I believe in challenging dogs. But be fair about.
I can say this. Most of time when we all run into this. Key words there is MOST. You have the most points carrying judge trying to impress their co-judge. Or a Master level judge not toning down from Master level. I really didn't want to make that statement but it's true because I have personally witness it as a judge when I first started judging. I spoke my piece to those judges an some agree an change setups an others didn't agree with me. One even over ruled me on a setup because they were high point judge. I have noted not to judge or run dogs under judges like that.
Senior Judges shouldn't be afraid to judge. Those that are, are forced to eliminate with over the top tests. In senior, the dogs which are not sufficiently trained will fail a difficult, straight up test. You don't need to do this kind of stuff.
There are many people who participate in Senior level tests who have no aspiration to run Master tests. Interrupted marks were the 'test du jour' in region 1 Master tests this past year, so why do it in Senior?-Paul
there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.
I also agree with Gooser. Each level is its own level with its own requirements. Demonstrate the skills for that level and your good. As a judge its up to me to set a fair test that demonstrates that dogs ability based on its level. Shame on me as a judge for not doing that.
Black Ice Retrievers
Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)
"Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"
I'm with gooser. Did the Mann say u can't run between two gun stations of a double before the marks are thrown? Or not? Is this different than what the Mann said in the seminar attended by GC and others?
Go Nutts with dog training
HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson" RIP (5/26/01-6/18/15)
Castile Creeks Rawhide, MH "Rowdy"
REmember,, I am NOT COMPLAINING.. I willtrain for what I need to to pass a test,,, But,,
What on earth is the thinking from AKC officials to require a dog in testing to see a diversion bird ON ITS WAY OUT on a blind retrieve.
A SENIOR DOG! A dog that most of us have spent considerable amount of time getting them to have good blind attitude, to RUN STRAIGHT as sent, only then in testing to have a judge deliberately erode that momentum with a diversion on a dogs route TO a blind?
I just dont get this at ALL for a Senior dog.
A diversion bird on the RETURN of a mark or a Blind is FINE with me I get it,,, But why with young dogs,as the dog is going??? ON A BLIND??? The part of a dogs training we work so hard at getting them to GO,,, and then stay straight??
I mean really,, Is this the only way you can come up with to test control?
Rule book says the following.
Section 25. Diversion Birds and Shots. A diversion
shot is a shot in which no bird is thrown, and shall
only be fired in Senior and Master Tests.
Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve either
after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is returning
from the blind retrieve; however, diversion birds shall
only appear on marks when the dog is returning from a
Diversion birds shall always be initiated in front of
the working dog. The diversion bird is not a mark but
constitutes a trainability situation. It is always retrieved
by the working dog. Diversion birds shall be shot or
thrown when the working dog is in a location that it
should be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air
and as it falls.
Section 26. Weather. Weather is an important
consideration for the hunting test event committee.
The safety of participants and animals is of utmost
importance. Extreme weather such as lightening, strong
winds, heat or cold, snow or heavy rain can create
hazardous conditions. The hunting test event committee,
in consultation with the judges, has the responsibility to
decide if an event should be halted due to weather and
at what point the event shall resume. If a weather delay
results in an entrant being unable to participate, the
refund of entry fees, in whole or in part, will be at the
discretion of the event committee. If an entire event or
part of an event is cancelled due to weather, the refund
of entry fees, in whole or in part, will be at the discretion
of the event committee.
Last edited by MooseGooser; 10-17-2013 at 12:13 PM.