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Question for akc rules junkies

27K views 147 replies 42 participants last post by  skelso 
#1 ·
AKC senior hunt test water series. The setup was one mark on the right thrown right to left on the opposite bank. The go bird was left of the line on the near bank to be tossed into the water. The blind was in between the marks almost directly across from the line.

Because the blind was between the marks, it was to be run first. The hunt test committee had to approve all setups and they disapproved this one because of the location of the blind (between marks).

I thought this was ok because the blind was to be run first.
 
#2 ·
I'm not a rule junky.

I like that the committee wanted the judges to change the test as I do not believe a blind should ever be between the two marks in senior. But... I don't believe the committee had the right to approve the setups except for an issue of safety. The judges set the test and interpret the rules as they apply to their test.

Am I wrong?
 
#7 ·
Here is what the regs and rules say:
"The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test
Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all
of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests,
except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the
Judges."
But "that does not mean that the Event Committee cannot intervene when a test is contrary to the Rules and Regulations. When the judges set up a test contrary to the Rules and Regulations, the Event Committee has the power - and the obligation - to 'step' in and advise the judges of the illegal conditions and require that the flaw be corrected."
That is from the article on committee responsibilities that the AKC has published at the back of EE catalogs.
 
#3 ·
I do not believe it violates the letter of the rules but if you think about why the rule is on the books you would try extremely hard to find a blind outside the marks. Depending on the set up, the dogs could be dealing with looking at holding blinds or dealing with scent from the fall areas. I do not believe a Senior dog should have to deal with either.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I agree with Tom and started this before I read his post. But, I'll carry on anyway.
I don't have to open the book to know that in senior tests blinds shall - note: shall - not be run between marks. The book does NOT say "Unless the blind is run first." The reason is to remove that suction for these young - at least in their training - dogs. Even though pup may not have seen the marks go down there is still scent and very visible throwing stations - unless they have unlike any senior test I've seen been very careful to fully brush and hide the stations - that will affect the pups. IMO the HT committee was correct in pointing out that the setup was a violation of the rules. (I've also had judges claim that an under the arc blind was OK as it was not "between the marks." Some folks seem to spend more effort in figuring out how to work around the rules than just working with them.)
 
#10 ·
The book does NOT say "Unless the blind is run first."
Mr. Mann is not some oracle pronouncing what the rules are and this would not be the first time I disagreed with his reported pronouncements. The rules are the rules--in fact, I think I would take Mr. Swift's pronouncements more often :)

I think the only way you could get away with doing this under the rules is if you ran the blind, did callbacks and then ran the marks. That way it would at least be a different series and the 'not between the marks yet' argument might hold some water. Still that would be pretty shaky justification for what everyone else with common sense seems to agree is a bad idea. Some times it may be very difficult to avoid given what the judges have to work with but it is a lot for a senior dog, not to mention what it might do to many of the poor handlers.
 
#8 ·
And what specificallisticall did Mr Mann says about this in the Seminar for those of us that haven't attended one.

I , ll prolly just run em and not worry about such things, and Hopefully have fun doin it.

But I would like to know what Mr Mann Said,even IF it does contradict the rules.

Curious regards

Gooser

I was always under the impression blind could not be between the marks, but, I have been confused on a continual basis fed a long time now.. I take huge amounts of more dictation for the problem.
 
#9 ·
Mr. Mann said if you run the blind first, then its not between the marks. I would say "its not between the marks YET" but its between the bird crates, the holding blinds, suction, gunners moving around, etc. and probably not a real swell idea. But they don't let me give the seminars for obvious reasons. My dogs have run more than one "not between the marks YET" blinds in Senior, some turned out better than others, depending on the wind off the flyer station.....
 
#11 ·
This is why Junior and Senior judges should get first choice of property and ponds over master. Master you can set up almost anything and work around stuff. In Senior real hard to set up a water blind in a cow pond along with water marks. . As for Jerry Mann, his interpetation of the rules are his alone.
 
#12 ·
Who is Mr. Swift?
It's hard to believe it could have been worse with only 7 of
27 passing (excluding the MH dog). See my Rowdy First Ribbon post.
 
#13 ·
Had a situation where the water blind was not between the marks but required an angle entry with suction to commit cheating. I prefer not to tempt JR or SR dogs with a cheating situation if possible. Discussion about the setup later on opened up several scenarios that could be done. #1 run the blind as a land blind in the water series and do the water blind as part of the land series. #2 Run 3 series, a double on land, a double on water and a double blind, 1 land and 1 water. Now take yer choice cowboy, a blind 1st or other scenarios of which many could fall within the rules. Judges that work with the committee in their setups seem to have better setups. More eyes in the thought process are better. After all it is a test of dogs not a measure of a judges independence from all things foreign.
 
#15 ·
This exact scenario happened to me at my first Senior test. The gun stations were set up: one on the left bank, the other on the right bank. While you and dog are in holding blind before coming to the line, a diversion shot was fired from the right-hand gun station. The blind was right up the middle with hazzards to the right where the shot came from.

If your dog has run any tests ever, its going to be frantically looking for gun stations as you walk to the line. She will find them and they will provide suction. However, this suction is perhaps less suction than if you're running a land double with a flyer then have to run the land blind placed 20 yards from the flyer station and in the same direction of the flyer AOF. Which is worse?
 
#17 ·
Like GoodDogs said, I think it's good to work with the committee as far as safety and the rules go. After that, leave me alone. I have seen several times where an entire MH test has been run and the minimum requirements for a MH were not met. That's inexcuseable IMO. Judges didn't know the rules and committee didn't either.
 
#18 ·
I have run one test where the blind was between the marks, just off the left hand gun station. Got my dog to the blind with two whistles but she didn't come up with a bird so sucked to the gun station. I put her back on blind and she sucked over again after the third time of handling her to the blind the judge finally yelled out to the bird boy did he plant the blind. His answer was no he didn't have any birds left. I called her in and they threw a diversion on the way in which she thought she should pick up. Needless to say I was not a happy camper because they felt she should be failed for going for the diversion.
 
#19 ·
Just for the record, Jerry Mann is one of the ultimate "deciders" of just what the rules say. If push comes to shove at a test, what the AKC rep says is "the law".

As for this particular situation, two issues. The blind run first between where two marks will eventually appear is correct within the rules. Most of us don't like to do this if for no other reason than all the time we spend explaining why it would be legal.

The second issue is the matter of the hunt test committee having to approve the test, it sounds like a joint HRC/AKC club in which the HRC members took on an authority which they do not have under any condition ... at an AKC test. Any committee that tried to do that to me would need to cite an authority in the rules ... which they couldn't do. If they insisted, I'd pick up the phone and consult with the AKC.
 
#23 ·
Perhaps the rule means to say that as a judge you cannot require the dog to pick up one of the marks, then the blind, then the other mark... if the blind is situated between the marks(?) or even if it is not(?) .Are marks interupted by a blind legal in a Senior HT? :confused::confused::p
 
#24 · (Edited)
My recollection of the initial setup was that u couldn't see the right gun station from the line because of willows and brush. The left was on the near bank. Dog would have to turn 90 degrees
to see it. However due to wet conditions there was a long
walk in and I think the dogs could see the right gun station from the back side on the way in.

There was a strong cross wind right to left.
 
#25 ·
There is the letter of the rules and then there is understanding the purpose and intent of the rules. Even if you run the blind first, the dog and handler are still going to face a level of complexity that Senior dogs are not usually expected to face. This type of experience usually gives Test Committees a good reason to review their proceedures for selecting judges for an event.
 
#28 · (Edited)
It's like anything else Gooser... it is whatever a pair of judges wants it to be within the rules. Most that I have seen are straightforward marking tests with square water entries and blinds with some factors but not really involving the marks too much.

Having said that you could get a series with two converging marks, separated by 20 degrees, short bird upwind of a long memory bird and the blind 10 deg downwind and past the whole set up, on a hillside pitching the dogs back into the marks.

A lot of accomplished MH dogs would probably do ****ty work on this one and it's perfectly legal in SH.

It's a double, the blind is outside the marks and you weren't told what order to pick up the marks in.

I think that's why there are required apprenticeships and dog handling experience. A lot of what you see is based more on tradition and unwritten standards for performance. Knowledge of those is only gained through experience and time in the game. It's also why there is a required number of judging points for the two judge team (I think).
 
#29 · (Edited)
Here is what I found in the rule book.


Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall
include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as
a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,
and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations
should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
Hunting Tests.



So, If Judges, and folks that teach the seminar, read this and Interpret the intent to allow a blind to be run between gun stations first, because no mark has been thrown yet,, OR to run a blind first,, then get to run marks by invitation,, when "Marking is of PRIMARY importance" (seems to me like the BLIND was PRIMARY) Do you all believe they are following "INTENT" or personal opinion?



Yes, I know I should attend a seminar,, but I would just be there wanting an answere to the same question above. What does the seminar teacher say? "Cause I say so?:)
 
#30 · (Edited)
Howard said he couldnt find anything in the rules about Blinds being run between marks.

Here is what I found in the rule book.


Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall
include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as
a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,
and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations
should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
Hunting Tests.



So, If Judges, and folks that teach the seminar, read this and Interpret the intent to allow a blind to be run between gun stations first, because no mark has been thrown yet,, OR to run a blind first,, then get to run marks by invitation,, when "Marking is of PRIMARY importance" (seems to me like the BLIND was PRIMARY) Do you all believe they are following "INTENT" or personal opinion?



Yes, I know I should attend a seminar,, but I would just be there wanting an answere to the same question above. What does the seminar teacher say? "Cause I say so?:)
I honestly think often that judges try to do something different than the same ole boring setups. I've not been to a test with the blind up the middle, but have seen a few other "meaty" tests. I really felt like if the test was a straight up 35/60yrd double with a silly 50yrd blind way off to the side, was a serious in-justice to the dogs. It really rings true when you see weak dogs barely pass the simple test. I suppose that's what makes Senior hard to setup/judge for. I would just have to see the other factors to know if the blind up the middle was too much or would more leeway have to be given. Spread between stations, terrain, and wind would have lots of bearing.
 
#31 ·
Since we are going to the rule book a dog must carrry an overall average of 7 with an minimum average on blinds of 5.

Ch2 Section 1 "Qualifying score in senior and master Retriever Hunting
Tests, not only must a dog receive an overall average of
not less than seven (7.0) for the entire test, but it must also
receive separate, independent average scores of not less
than five (5.0) in each ability category related to
marking, as well as separate, independent average scores of not less
than five (5.0) in each ability category related to blinds."

The next paragraph is almost never used in my experience. Long waits for call backs!

"If, at any time during testing, a dog is graded zero (0)
by two Judges for the same ability, the dog cannot receive
a Qualifying score and the handler must be informed that
the dog cannot receive a Qualifying score."

But that is another discussion.
 
#33 ·
as this thread drifts away I worry we (some) are very close to running the bus over a couple of judges. We all know or can find out who was in the chairs with the click of a mouse 'cause of Wayne's other thread about the pups first pass.
middle level hunt test blinds are a bitch to set up. Yes you see the up the middle. And you see the off to the side waters edge sharp angle entry that some dogs can dry land run allmost all the way to. Or the ol' live bird team person take a few steps and chuck so poor Fido is running at a bird crate, just about. Master judges have it made, blinds are mixed into the marking set ups. Poor senior judges must keep them away. But what of the grounds? What if the chunk of marsh and field and puddle of mud the judges are given is a bit, um, limited? Many times a test will have a lot of master dogs and a lot of junior dogs and a handfull of senior, so who gets the lame field? Middle level! Every Time! You got to run the dogs afore the sun sets!
 
#35 ·
Mr Gooser -

I was referring to the fact that tests need to be approved in HRC whereas they are not in AKC. Not only do they not need to be approved, there is no provision for this to even be considered. Instead, the rule book says in Chapter 3, Section 4:

Section 4. Test Set-Up. The Judges, with paramount regard to Section 1 of this Chapter, shall determine the tests to be given and shall design those tests in order to approximate as nearly as possible the conditions met in true hunting situations. In keeping with this aim, the Judges shall design and enhance hunting situations by utilizing, as naturally as possible, the equipment that would be found in a true upland game or waterfowl hunting
situation. Strategic placement of numerous decoys, use of camouflaged blinds to conceal guns and throwers, duck boats, duck and goose calls, etc., are necessary adjuncts to Hunting Tests for Retrievers.

You'll note that the judges have the responsibility for setting up the test and the committee has no role in approval. Further, in Chapter 1, Section 14 we find the words:

The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests, except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the Judges, and must provide themselves with copies of the latest editions of these books.

The committee is responsible for putting on the event but the test itself is the sole responsibility of the judges.
 
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