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Thread: Single Bark when leaving line on blinds

  1. #51
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    I don't see this as addressing the problem in any way. He said the longer he waits the worse the problem becomes Please expound
    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Sharon hasn't come back but I'm sure she will agree with me.

    Simply waiting until the dog settles is teaching him that he will only get what he wants (to be released) by exhibiting an acceptable behavior, that being to sit quietly and relax. The idea then is to launch him in a more relaxed mind set so that the symptom of the anxiety (bark/spin) doesn't occur. Over time this will re-form into a new set of habits for the dog.

    This is not un-similar to simply stepping in and launching him. In that method you're just not giving him a chance to get any more anxious because you're not fidgeting around trying to line him up.

    Same goes for sending from a remote position. If he's anxious at your side or anticipating pressure there, send him from a different position where he should be more relaxed.

    As has been noted there are a number of ways to address the issue. These are probably the least risky for someone who might dig themselves a hole otherwise (IMHO).



    Exactly right. The hard part for most people is waiting and doing nothing. With a really amped up dog, it may...seriously...take 15 or 20 minutes the first few times. That seems like an hour when you're just standing there. If a dog is getting more cranked up waiting, you didn't wait long enough. They will eventually settle. The critical thing is to do nothing and say nothing (unless the dog breaks). It absolutely will work. The vast majority of people don't have the patience to do it.

    Anytime a dog has to figure out how to get what it wants and is rewarded for the correct, relaxed response, it will repeat the behavior and learn far more quickly than when we're doing all sorts of manipulating.

    I worked with a dog at a seminar that had a bad "bark and spin" issue on blinds. It took what seemed like forever for the dog...a high roller...to give up, sit and relax the first time or two. It got a lot better really quickly after that. But it takes patience, patience and more patience.
    Last edited by Sharon Potter; 10-25-2013 at 10:59 AM.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member big gunner's Avatar
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    You have already said he does not do it on short blinds. But on longer blinds you take longer time to line him up. You don't need to sweat the dog. That may by causing the anxity and the bark. IMO walk him to the line and send him. let him roll a bit. It would also help with confidence if you used targets at the blinds. ( Cones, orange stakes, sticks with orange tape, milk jugs) Something that builds confidence with distance. If you have any questions PM me.
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  3. #53
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    I agree that is good advice and I have done this with a few dogs,however this paticular dog is quiet and steady at the line and doesn't move a muscle or make a sound until released. The other problem is he doesn't do it everytime and Jerry is pretty consistant in how he works him. Did he mention he is yellow? (Sorry Jerry had to get in a jab even tho I now own one yeller dog) I think we are training tomorrow if Jerry gets back tonight from his trip and I hope to see a difference if he just walks up and kicks him off. This is the kind of stuff that makes this site great.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    Exactly right. The hard part for most people is waiting and doing nothing. With a really amped up dog, it may...seriously...take 15 or 20 minutes the first few times. That seems like an hour when you're just standing there. If a dog is getting more cranked up waiting, you didn't wait long enough. They will eventually settle. The critical thing is to do nothing and say nothing (unless the dog breaks). It absolutely will work. The vast majority of people don't have the patience to do it.

    Anytime a dog has to figure out how to get what it wants and is rewarded for the correct, relaxed response, it will repeat the behavior and learn far more quickly than when we're doing all sorts of manipulating.

    I worked with a dog at a seminar that had a bad "bark and spin" issue on blinds. It took what seemed like forever for the dog...a high roller...to give up, sit and relax the first time or two. It got a lot better really quickly after that. But it takes patience, patience and more patience.

  4. #54
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Beil View Post
    I appreciate the replies everyone. He rarely spins. There isn't any issue with momentum at all ever.


    I'll respond with more when I get back to my PC.
    the purpose of momentum blinds in this instance is not necessarily for momentum. It is to get rid of the dog quickly from your side, and still have success no matter where the end of the blind is.....
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  5. #55
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    I would ask myself two questions; 1) Is it getting worse, staying the same or getting better(less frequent)? 2) If it stays the same, one bark as he launches on a blind, can you live with that? If the answer to #2 is yes, I would ignore it unless you see it getting worse. Sometimes trying to correct issues can have unintended conquences. My old training buddy said it was like pushing a bump in on a water ballon, it just pops out somewhere else.

    John

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Sharon hasn't come back but I'm sure she will agree with me.

    Simply waiting until the dog settles is teaching him that he will only get what he wants (to be released) by exhibiting an acceptable behavior, that being to sit quietly and relax. The idea then is to launch him in a more relaxed mind set so that the symptom of the anxiety (bark/spin) doesn't occur. Over time this will re-form into a new set of habits for the dog.

    This is not un-similar to simply stepping in and launching him. In that method you're just not giving him a chance to get any more anxious because you're not fidgeting around trying to line him up.

    Same goes for sending from a remote position. If he's anxious at your side or anticipating pressure there, send him from a different position where he should be more relaxed.

    As has been noted there are a number of ways to address the issue. These are probably the least risky for someone who might dig themselves a hole otherwise (IMHO).
    Once again I don't see the OP saying that the dog is too amped up; as a matter of fact he says that the longer he sits at the line the more amped he becomes. I also take issue with you implying that the dog will learn to "settle in" in order to get what he wants i.e. the release to go get the blind. I have seen some dogs that really don't like to do blinds. Those dogs may just wait you out. Your idea of not digging the hole any deeper is a good one. I believe that by WW lining drills & doing LOTS more blinds this situation will probably go away on its own. I certainly would try that for a good while before I would resort to any "remedies" that may cause more issues

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    Exactly right. The hard part for most people is waiting and doing nothing. With a really amped up dog, it may...seriously...take 15 or 20 minutes the first few times. That seems like an hour when you're just standing there. If a dog is getting more cranked up waiting, you didn't wait long enough. They will eventually settle. The critical thing is to do nothing and say nothing (unless the dog breaks). It absolutely will work. The vast majority of people don't have the patience to do it.

    Anytime a dog has to figure out how to get what it wants and is rewarded for the correct, relaxed response, it will repeat the behavior and learn far more quickly than when we're doing all sorts of manipulating.

    I worked with a dog at a seminar that had a bad "bark and spin" issue on blinds. It took what seemed like forever for the dog...a high roller...to give up, sit and relax the first time or two. It got a lot better really quickly after that. But it takes patience, patience and more patience.
    Sharon the OP indicates that the dog is relaxed at the line and gets more amped the longer he waits. The barking and spinning don't occur at the line; they occur after the dog leaves the line What would you do if after waiting for 20 minutes you release the dog and he barks?
    Additionally what if you have a dog that doesn't care for blinds & would love to play your waiting game, because he'd just as soon sit at the line rather than run a blind? I'd really rather not allow the dog to choreograph when we do or don't get the bird. Two other problems I have with your waiting game is that my hunting partners would be mighty pissed if the hunt had to be put on hold and they had had to wait while I spent 20 minutes waiting for Rover to "settle in" before I kicked him off. Also if you get to the point in your program where you are successfully running and passing levels that require blinds to be run, you will find that judges aren't gonna sit back and wait 20 minutes for you to let Rover "settle in"
    My advice to the OP would be to take those 20 minutes & do some very short lining drills such as WW; and run lots of blinds before I would ever consider this to be a problem that needs addressing. The cure can be worse than the disease This would have multiple purposes; The dog wouldn't have time to bark, many repetitions in a short time, and most importantly the average dog and handler when they begin running blinds aren't as attuned to each other as they should be. The dog frequently doesn't know how or yet feel comfortable being lined up for blinds. Additionally many handlers spend too much time & effort trying to fine line a dog. The dog, and possibly the handler, has neither the skills nor inclination for fine lining; this leads to anxiety and pressure for both. For these reasons I think you are much better served kicking the young dog off when he is close, rather than micro managing the lining. Two guiding principles for teaching blinds are 1) The best way to become proficient at COLD BLINDS is to run many 2) Train for momentum and precision will come: train for precision and momentum will depart

  8. #58
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    Once again I don't see the OP saying that the dog is too amped up; as a matter of fact he says that the longer he sits at the line the more amped he becomes. I also take issue with you implying that the dog will learn to "settle in" in order to get what he wants i.e. the release to go get the blind. I have seen some dogs that really don't like to do blinds. Those dogs may just wait you out. Your idea of not digging the hole any deeper is a good one. I believe that by WW lining drills & doing LOTS more blinds this situation will probably go away on its own. I certainly would try that for a good while before I would resort to any "remedies" that may cause more issues
    I don't know why you would "take issue" with any of this. It's just a discussion about various methods to fix a common problem with retrievers.

    You can't dig a hole by doing this. Running lots more stuff where he gets rewarded for barking will dig it deeper though.

    Now then, what you say may turn out to be true. The dog may be having an automatic, unconscious reaction to pressure, having been forced to the pile. Remove that pressure over the course of some repetitions may, in fact allow him to settle down. It depends on how deeply the habit is ingrained. Maybe... Maybe it will go away on it's own, but then maybe it won't.

    Regardless, waiting for him to settle down CAN'T hurt anything.

    I've seen calling a dog back with pressure work in this situation too, but I surely wouldn't recommend it as a first line of defense. It's too risky.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 10-26-2013 at 07:19 PM.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    Sharon the OP indicates that the dog is relaxed at the line and gets more amped the longer he waits. The barking and spinning don't occur at the line; they occur after the dog leaves the line What would you do if after waiting for 20 minutes you release the dog and he barks?
    The barking may just be the dog's way of saying "geez, it took you long enough to send me" which I do agree can be helped by less fussing and positioning by the handler. However, it also tells me there is anticipation (which is good) and while the dog may not be "amped up" or showing poor line manners, there is still a level of debate going on. When the dog really settles, the anticipation overload is gone, so the bark isn't needed. Without standing there and watching the dog, I can't read exactly what's going on, so won't say more.




    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    Additionally what if you have a dog that doesn't care for blinds & would love to play your waiting game, because he'd just as soon sit at the line rather than run a blind? I'd really rather not allow the dog to choreograph when we do or don't get the bird.
    If I had a dog that didn't care for blinds, I'd find the reason why and fix it. Is it due to pressure? Insecurity/uncertainty/lack of confidence? And I'd use birds, birds, and more birds. Plus, add in a real hunting type situation where the energy level and motivation is higher. If, after all that, the dog still lacked motivation, I'd say fair enough, you don't enjoy the work, we'll find you another job. No point in forcing a square peg into a round hole.


    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    Two other problems I have with your waiting game is that my hunting partners would be mighty pissed if the hunt had to be put on hold and they had had to wait while I spent 20 minutes waiting for Rover to "settle in" before I kicked him off. Also if you get to the point in your program where you are successfully running and passing levels that require blinds to be run, you will find that judges aren't gonna sit back and wait 20 minutes for you to let Rover "settle in"
    Twenty minutes *may* happen the first time or two at home and again in a training group situation. It's not forever...that would be completely ridiculous. How long it takes depends on how long the dog has been showing the problem and the patience and skill of the handler. If a dog has been doing this for a couple of years, it isn't going away overnight. If you catch it right away, it can be eliminated just as fast as it started. The dogs connect the dots way faster than we think they can...we don't give them anywhere near enough credit for intelligence.

    I know a lot of the stuff I do is outside the normal "way it's done" and I'm OK with that. If it didn't work, I wouldn't be doing it.
    Last edited by Sharon Potter; 10-26-2013 at 10:15 PM.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member Randy Bohn's Avatar
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    Maybe the bark has nothing to do with the blinds or marks at all...taking to much time on line...etc...maybe the bark has an indirect meaning?? just maybe...
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