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Thread: Which stud would you rather have a pup out of??

  1. #21
    Senior Member PennyRetrievers's Avatar
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    I've only bred one litter, but my guiding principle for picking a stud was this:

    what stud would I want a pup out of?

    In the end, you know your bitch, and you know what your own preference would be. Sure, pedigree sells dogs, but temperament and attitude don't show on a pedigree. Make sure you see both dogs run, and pick the one you like best.
    "Somehow this creature has completed my manhood; somehow, I cannot explain why, a man ought to have a dog. A man ought to have six legs; those other four legs are part of him." -G.K. Chesterton

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  2. #22
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    Default littermates

    Trigger and Patrone are littermates to the Chopper male and both are running all age stakes - I have seen them in training all summer and wouldn't hesitate to own either one - contact Lorri Oliver for info on either one
    trog

  3. #23
    Senior Member Kevinismybrother's Avatar
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    I like Eddie - but then my next pup will have Chopper up close.

    how high is High? all the time? Training? trials?
    "Too late smart, too soon old" - Now I finally get it Grandpa

    Dennis Long
    HRCH SHDW MTN Aces and Eights Toby MH "Toby"
    HRCH Barton Creek's Winner Take All MH "Rio"
    Ranger 1997 - 2012
    Ragin' Charge of the Light Brigade "Cannon"

  4. #24
    Senior Member Bartona500's Avatar
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    Per the other thread, it's "by", not "out of."

    Now I'm guessing that thread was a response to this one.
    -Barton Ramsey

  5. #25

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    Thanks everyone for your responses. First of all, I apologize for the incorrect terminology and saying who would you rather have a pup "out of" instead of "by". I know over the years people have had issues with Wayne saying that in his "Hank and Rowdy by Pirate" threads, so I thought that would be easiest. Now, I will answer as many of the questions as presented.

    1.) Dennis says either one would be really nice. We were thinking about Pete more because of his tempermant. He is a "cooler" dog and is one of the only dogs in our training group that sits the entire time on line lol. He watches his birds well and is very easy to move around and really works with Dennis. I mentioned Eddie and he said that would work as well and he wouldn't have a problem with me breeding any one of them to her. Another reason I have thought about Pete over Eddie is I already have an Eddie puppy. While I like him very much and at this point am not necessarily planning on keeping a puppy from this litter, if I change my mind or end up having one left that I have to keep I am not sure I would want to pups by the same sire.

    2.) My goal with this litter is to produce some fine, genetically sound pups that would be great in the field and also in the house. Ideally, I would love to see them all go to competitive homes. However, I know with the lack of FC/AFC or even MH the litter may not be super marketable for serious competitors. Kali is an awesome house dog and a real lover dog. She has the coveted "OFF switch" but really turns it on in the field. She can get a little crazy in the field, but I attribute most of that to her basics and the fact that she got a very late start in formal training due to my work schedule after I got her (She was raised by my folks for several months and then basically sat with no training after that for her first year.) She is a good marker and handles pretty well most of the time. She has a ridiculous desire to please me and loves to retrieve. Also, she has some really good old dogs in her pedigree that you don't really see that often. I know she is not a MH yet or anything, but she has JAMd several Qualifying stakes in limited trialing and will continue to campaign in AA stakes next Spring. In a couple of these trials, she was in really good shape looking at color but due to handler error, went to green. (This is not just me saying this, judges have actually told me that). I also plan on pursuing her MH next year as well. I do want a pup out of her, but I am not sure with a pup currently that now is the right time.

    3.) When I say Eddie and Kali are both pretty high dogs, I mean mostly at a trial. Both are improving, but still get so intense and semi crazy. Eddie sometimes is hard to move around when the birds go off and will pick one out and may not see the others. Kali can be difficult to move when showing the birds, but usually will watch them all. Occassionally, both have an "autopilot" switch when running as well. Pete is not like this, but has a ton of desire and is birdy and driven. I tend to think the match between Kali and Pete would produce driven, focused pups that are very biddable.

    4.) If I was keeping a puppy, I would take one by either of these boys.My main reason for the question is the marketability of the litter. That sounds awful, but I would like to know if people would be interested and which combination perks more ears up, so to speak. I love Kali's pedigree and know that it is pretty attractive (otherwise I wouldn't have her).

    5.) Eddie's previous litters are less than 1 year old, but have been getting good reports. Mine is from his first litter and is VERY smart. He pretty much flew threw FF and has been handling FTP really well, with no flaring or bugging. He has a great temperament and seems to be pretty tractable so far. I have said many times he is the smartest pup I have ever worked with and really just "gets it" and picks up things very quickly and easily. He seems to have A LOT of his daddy in him, but may be easier to handle because of his mama (she's a choco dog out of the FC AFC Nan Elwood Blues line). It probably helps, too, that I am not letting him get out of hand and am really staying on top of his obedience. From the way it sounds, Eddie's pups are all very smart with a ton of desire and great temperaments.

    6) I like both pedigrees. I like Pete for the Merlyn and I like Eddie for the Keila X Ranger almost more than the Chopper. Both are very young dogs (Pete will be 3 in May and Eddie will be 4 in April) so they both have a lot of career left. I think (and others share my opinion) that both these boys will be a forced to be reckoned with next trial season. I may very well end up breeding to one this time and the other another time, as was suggested lol.

    7.) I also found out about Kali's dam, Sugar, making history recently and will add that to her info (hopefully Bill won't care). She is the ONLY dog in history to pass 9 Master Nationals, all in a row to boot!!! That is quite an impressive feat (and I would think that even if I didn't have a daughter of hers).

    8) I have also seen Eddie's littermates Patron and Trigger run. I actually ran my very first Q against Trigger. I really like both of them as well. On the other hand, I also train every day with a littermate to Pete and like him, too. I have also trained with and seen a couple different Merlyn pups out of Ron Ainley's bitch Bert and also like them. Francis Keenan has a male that is just shy of the derby list and is really looking like he might be a big dog one day. I actually ran him in training several times as a pup and really liked him then. After seeing a few different Merlyn offspring, I really like what he produces. I have even considered going to him directly in the future. For now though, Pete is closer.

    well, this has to be one of my longest ever RTF posts so I will end it here. I believe I addressed everyone's questions/concerns. Thank you all so much for your input and responses. I really appreciate it!!!

    Shameless plug here, but would any of you actually be interested in either of these litters???
    Last edited by Jamee Strange; 10-23-2013 at 10:57 PM.
    God bless!- Jamee

    When you stop having fun, it's time to quit!!
    "If your dog doesn't like someone you probably shouldn't either"- Author unknown

    My team:
    HR Dr. J's RxRated High Caliber JH "Kali"
    White Oak's Change of Plans "Bodee"
    #1 cheerleader: SJ's Gotta-Lot-A Go Lil "Jake"

    Gone but never forgotten:
    HR Stevie-Joe's Super "Star"- my heart dog, I love you baby
    October 24, 2001-January 6, 2013

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar Twist Angel View Post
    Kali sure has a nice pedigree.
    Thank you very much! I am a little partial to her
    God bless!- Jamee

    When you stop having fun, it's time to quit!!
    "If your dog doesn't like someone you probably shouldn't either"- Author unknown

    My team:
    HR Dr. J's RxRated High Caliber JH "Kali"
    White Oak's Change of Plans "Bodee"
    #1 cheerleader: SJ's Gotta-Lot-A Go Lil "Jake"

    Gone but never forgotten:
    HR Stevie-Joe's Super "Star"- my heart dog, I love you baby
    October 24, 2001-January 6, 2013

  7. #27
    Senior Member 3blackdogs's Avatar
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    I almost posted before I saw your last response. Here's what I had written:

    "Look at your bitch with as critical an eye as possible: what does she bring to the table that's good bad or indifferent? What are you looking for in the offspring? Assuming a successful breeding, who are you going to sell the other 4-6-8 or so puppies to?

    Then talk to people that have direct involvement in breeding to those in the pedigrees, not just the "I have a puppy by/out of so and so and he's cool" or those trying to sell you something. (There are scads of puppies by Chopper and Merlyn. You need to dig a little deeper and see what the 'trend' is on what they throw. Don't ignore the bitch lines in those pedigrees - there's more than Chopper and Merlyn in the mix.)

    Find the stud that complements what your bitch has and enhances what she lacks, and by the same token what she has that might balance the minuses of the studs..... If very 'high' is an issue, proceed carefully."


    BUT given, that your real question is marketability, I think you pretty much nailed it with the comment that it would be tough to place the pups in field trial homes - unless the owners are from the same geography or have direct knowledge of the sire/dam. There are a few litters that have national panache (typically when FC/AFCs are on both sides), but people are attracted to pups from dogs they know well or they are watching the performance career. Not having a title on at least one side could be a concern because it means the performance of neither dog has either not been tested yet or the performance thus far hasn't attained the title level. People consider the pedigrees seriously, but they also want to know if the immediate parents can 'cut it'.

    Genetics takes you only so far. After all, not every great kid has wonderful parents, and not every wonderful parent has great kids.........

    Your litter, although without the titles you cite in the immediate dam/sire side, might have a lot of attraction to those that you train with and/or that compete against those dogs. And of course, price will have a lot of influence as well. I'm not sure I understood your comment #4, would you keep a pup or not?
    ________________________
    Lydia

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3blackdogs View Post
    I almost posted before I saw your last response. Here's what I had written:

    "Look at your bitch with as critical an eye as possible: what does she bring to the table that's good bad or indifferent? What are you looking for in the offspring? Assuming a successful breeding, who are you going to sell the other 4-6-8 or so puppies to?

    Then talk to people that have direct involvement in breeding to those in the pedigrees, not just the "I have a puppy by/out of so and so and he's cool" or those trying to sell you something. (There are scads of puppies by Chopper and Merlyn. You need to dig a little deeper and see what the 'trend' is on what they throw. Don't ignore the bitch lines in those pedigrees - there's more than Chopper and Merlyn in the mix.)

    Find the stud that complements what your bitch has and enhances what she lacks, and by the same token what she has that might balance the minuses of the studs..... If very 'high' is an issue, proceed carefully."


    BUT given, that your real question is marketability, I think you pretty much nailed it with the comment that it would be tough to place the pups in field trial homes - unless the owners are from the same geography or have direct knowledge of the sire/dam. There are a few litters that have national panache (typically when FC/AFCs are on both sides), but people are attracted to pups from dogs they know well or they are watching the performance career. Not having a title on at least one side could be a concern because it means the performance of neither dog has either not been tested yet or the performance thus far hasn't attained the title level. People consider the pedigrees seriously, but they also want to know if the immediate parents can 'cut it'.

    Genetics takes you only so far. After all, not every great kid has wonderful parents, and not every wonderful parent has great kids.........

    Your litter, although without the titles you cite in the immediate dam/sire side, might have a lot of attraction to those that you train with and/or that compete against those dogs. And of course, price will have a lot of influence as well. I'm not sure I understood your comment #4, would you keep a pup or not?
    All very good points to consider, thank you. I had originally wanted to get a pup out of my bitch. However, I have a 9 month old pup now and he is really in the crucial point of his basics (towards the end on FTP and pile work). I am worried that starting with a new pup around the time he is 1 would take away from his training some. I also live in a subdivision in IL outside of STL and have 3 labs total already (my oldest is a non competitive companion dog who will be 8 in April). I am not sure right now would be the best time for me to keep one. That being said, if I do either breeding and the pups attract me, I could always end up changing my mind lol. So I guess the answer to your question is, no I do not plan on keeping one at this time. I have a couple people who know Kali that have expressed interest, but those pups will either be pets or gun dogs. I haven't put too many feelers out just yet, but that is where my target market will be I believe.

    Like you said, my main reason for the original post was marketability. However, I also wanted to pick the brains of RTFers and see if people even thought I might be on to something. Thanks again for your very informative reply. I really appreciate it!
    God bless!- Jamee

    When you stop having fun, it's time to quit!!
    "If your dog doesn't like someone you probably shouldn't either"- Author unknown

    My team:
    HR Dr. J's RxRated High Caliber JH "Kali"
    White Oak's Change of Plans "Bodee"
    #1 cheerleader: SJ's Gotta-Lot-A Go Lil "Jake"

    Gone but never forgotten:
    HR Stevie-Joe's Super "Star"- my heart dog, I love you baby
    October 24, 2001-January 6, 2013

  9. #29
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    Out of FC AFC Pattons Blazen Abby.
    Those who live by the sword get shot by those who dont.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Hurst View Post
    Out of FC AFC Pattons Blazen Abby.
    I'm a little confused by this response...?
    God bless!- Jamee

    When you stop having fun, it's time to quit!!
    "If your dog doesn't like someone you probably shouldn't either"- Author unknown

    My team:
    HR Dr. J's RxRated High Caliber JH "Kali"
    White Oak's Change of Plans "Bodee"
    #1 cheerleader: SJ's Gotta-Lot-A Go Lil "Jake"

    Gone but never forgotten:
    HR Stevie-Joe's Super "Star"- my heart dog, I love you baby
    October 24, 2001-January 6, 2013

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