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Thread: solving issues parading, shaking & not retrieving without FF?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Nah, no reason AT ALL to put that pup under the stress of FF or any other corrective style of training, if you just want to give him a nice life and take him hunting with you.

    You're going to have to adjust your thought process and to a degree expectations, especially if you're a guy that thinks a dog should do X by age Y, but no reason you can't have a hunting dog without all the pressure.

    That's all provided he wants to do the work, which it sounds like he does. If he doesn't, I wouldn't push a healthy dog along, much less a chronically ill one.

    Take a look into positive training, learn as much as you can, and adapt yourself a little program for this special guy.

    Discipline? we're not trying to win a national.
    Thats what Im thinking, I have another field bred golden who I have high level plans for. This guy is just a good friend who would really really enjoy being able to do some "work" and fetch some ducks. He loves to please like no dog I have ever seen. I always know when my younger pup is doing something wrong, because this guy will come sit by my feet... like saying i'm good i'm not the one digging a foot trap in the yard.

    Any way thanks for the advice, I will look into positive training, if anyone has any links or articles please do post.

    Thanks

  2. #12
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Finn - I'd guess Robert Milners approach is what you'll 'feel' best about. That said (and not sure why discipline is cast a dirty word) your dog, irregardless of it's unfortunate condition, is still a dog. It will act like a dog and react like a dog. Dogs are generally selfish critters regardless of how much we love them or they 'love' us.

    Your dilemma as stated: solving issues parading, shaking & not retrieving without FF? is pretty common for a young dog, ill or not. Particularly if the dog hasn't been taught good mouth habits and you the owner haven't established whose bird it is, and some expectations around the dogs role in retrieving.

    Nor can you train 'stress free' if you want the dog to come around to your thinking and not its own. Regardless of how we impart human traits onto a dog - the dog will give you what you train it to give you.

    You don't have to FF, but you do have to train the behavior. And it's often training behavior that conflicts with what the dog would rather do.

    Good luck.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  3. #13
    Senior Member Duckquilizer's Avatar
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    Forced Fetch/CONTROLLED fetch does not have to be a terrible thing you know? Just think, in 2-4 weeks this could all be history and it does NOT have to be a miserable expirence. Neither does obedience...
    Kendall Layne

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  4. #14
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    That was kinda obvious dontcha' think?
    Yes, it was obvious, as was the OP's desire not to subject the dog to a lot of pressure given his special circumstance.

    When you say discipline I am assuming you are referring to physical correction. Forgive me if I'm wrong about that but in the retriever world that would be a common method of training (long line, choke chain, pinch collar, e-collar).

    If you mean discipline in the vein that he only ever gets rewarded for doing appropriate behaviors then I apologize.

    I read you wrong.

    I'm just pointing out that this dog need not be corrected EVER if the OP doesn't want to subject him to that. No dog really needs to if you have the patience, expertise and the appropriate level of expectations.

    BTW I am no stranger to, nor advocate against corrective training styles. I use them every day of my life and with probably 90% of dogs I work with (which is about 15 month).

    I just think there are places where it's not necessary.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 10-28-2013 at 09:41 AM.
    Darrin Greene

  5. #15
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn2win View Post
    Thats what Im thinking, I have another field bred golden who I have high level plans for. This guy is just a good friend who would really really enjoy being able to do some "work" and fetch some ducks. He loves to please like no dog I have ever seen. I always know when my younger pup is doing something wrong, because this guy will come sit by my feet... like saying i'm good i'm not the one digging a foot trap in the yard.

    Any way thanks for the advice, I will look into positive training, if anyone has any links or articles please do post.

    Thanks
    You'll need to go look at some other sports for that information, although you may find that Wildrose or Robert Milner have some retriever specific stuff to refer to. Have a look at high level competitive obedience and agility trainers in your area. You can learn a lot. It'll seem wussy compared to a more "Standard" retriever program but if that's what you want for the dog, then you can certainly be successful with it.

    I sure wouldn't recommend trying to make a FT dog out of him but it sounds like you have a candidate for that
    Darrin Greene

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Finn2Winn, there is another forum for positive gun dog trainers at this link: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/PositiveGunDogs/conversations/topics

    It's a nice group of folks like Alice Woodyard and Lindsay Ridgeway who have had success for years using positive techniques. Alice also uses a collar, but she is a great advisor for those who don't. That may be a better forum to get the advice you're looking for.

    Good luck!

  7. #17
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Yes, it was obvious, as was the OP's desire not to subject the dog to a lot of pressure given his special circumstance.

    When you say discipline I am assuming you are referring to physical correction. Forgive me if I'm wrong about that but in the retriever world that would be a common method of training (long line, choke chain, pinch collar, e-collar).

    If you mean discipline in the vein that he only ever gets rewarded for doing appropriate behaviors then I apologize.

    I read you wrong.

    I'm just pointing out that this dog need not be corrected EVER if the OP doesn't want to subject him to that. No dog really needs to if you have the patience, expertise and the appropriate level of expectations.

    BTW I am no stranger to, nor advocate against corrective training styles. I use them every day of my life and with probably 90% of dogs I work with (which is about 15 month).

    I just think there are places where it's not necessary.
    Darrin - I wasn't trying to pick on you. I just can't draw a parallel on any of this to the dog being ill, hence for anything other than a full blown 'training' regiment might be a poor investment. That said - a dog is a dog and at 14 months it might be a misnomer the dog will turn around without a little pressure.

    This sounds like an owner (trainer) not a dog issue. But then again - that's often the case. And like most - folks tend to buy into what they want to hear, particularly as it relates to pressure, or more likely, 'all positive'. One guy in particular makes good money selling that. But that course begins at 8 weeks not 60 weeks.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  8. #18
    Senior Member HuntinDawg's Avatar
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    1) I would echo what someone else said: FF does not have to be a horrible experience and the worst of it is over relatively quickly IMO.
    2) Failing that and respecting your judgment not to put your dog through FF due to the expectancy of a short career, I'd have to agree with what others said about really working on the response to HERE and the come in whistle. You've already been given some ideas. I would add putting a long line on the dog and working on the response to HERE both when the dog IS and IS NOT retrieving. I don't want to be insulting, you may already know this, but with the long line you can ensure compliance and guarantee an opportunity to praise for that compliance even though the dog had no choice BUT to come when called. You want to use quick sharp tugs on the check cord, each one with the repeated command HERE and take up the slack as fast as you can to get multiple tugs (essentially collar corrections) as he is in route back to you on each return.

    I'm assuming you won't be using an e-collar either, so you've got to just teach in such a way as to guarantee success (rope does this) and then praise like crazy when you (predictably because the dog had no choice) get the desired result.

    Good luck and good for you for wanting to make the most of his time here despite his health issues.

    EDIT: You state that this dog has a strong desire to please, so I really think you can work this out to your satisfaction (not holding a very high standard, but still getting the dog to return the bird to you) by doing a lot of TEACHING what you want the dog to do as I've described above. Think of it a little like training puppy obedience. Teach the desired response and praise like crazy.
    Last edited by HuntinDawg; 10-28-2013 at 02:44 PM.
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