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Prey drive or courage,,?

3K views 33 replies 12 participants last post by  BJGatley 
#1 ·
I have been thinking of how these two attributes come into play when training a dog...Separately and together ... Does prey drive over shadow when it comes to displaying courage ,as in willingness to make the long swims...or vice-versa..? Steve S
 
#3 ·
Good point..Is bottom prey drive or courage to tackle what ever is presented....? Can a dog have prey drive and no courage..? Steve S
 
#4 ·
Prey drive is not what you look for in a retriever. Prey drive is the instinct to chase moving game. When the game stops moving, it kicks over into hunt drive.

What we want in our retrievers is hunt drive, the desire to find that fallen bird no matter what.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I respectfully submit that these are one in the same. It's the dog's ancient instinct to EAT that's at play here. Prey and hunt are exactly the same thing. They are looking for a bird to EAT it. The only reason they don't is because we've trained a different behavior into them when they find it.

Remember that in the natural world prey tends to hide from predators so.. a dog would have to use it's nose to find and flush the prey and then chase it down to kill/eat it.

We reverse that with the tasks we ask the dog to perform but naturally, what we're calling "hunt" drive would actually precede "prey" drive in the natural order of things. Thus, to me anyhow, they are one in the same.
 
#5 · (Edited)
More

It is funny a friend a I just had a long discussion about this.

To me I think all these different terms for drive are folks trying to invent a new mouse trap.

Drive is drive, it dose not matter what it is the pup will go as fast as it can to accomplish what it wants. ( Bumpers, birds, a stick, or what ever) I have not one, but a hundred time have heard this dogs pace is off, but they really like birds. The out come in general will be they do not make it as a trial dog. A driven dog will drive to there food bowl.

courage or how bold they are can change as they mature depending on how much drive they have. I have had dogs that I have had to put them through parts of training more then once before they understood what I wanted. I feel that this has more to do with bidability then drive.

Bottom is to me just, how long until they slow down or quit, but bottom can be deceiving. Some times all it is, is that the dog is out of shape.

Keith

How I read Bottom is, The harder the dog runs the better shape they have to be in.
 
#8 ·
Courage is Nola fighting like hell to climb over a log in the Canadian National Open and finally clearing it on her third try,Courage is Nola fighting thru the tulies in Soda Springs ID in the the Amateur stake and come out shaking her head with the duck in her mouth when no other dog could come up with the bird...the courageous dog will give you goosebumps and send shivers up your spine
 
#9 ·
Are these actions dictated by courage to adhere to the task at hand or the pure desire to get that bird.? OR, as Bruce said ..Drive starts the ball rolling and courage kicks in .....As mentioned earlier there is prey drive and hunt drive....Can we assume hunt drive carries with it courage ? Steve S
 
#18 · (Edited)
IMO drive+ courage+intelligence=sagacity.

A good dog has all 3 qualities and a few others too.

Drive makes the dog want the bird, courage gets him to the bird. But sagacity gets him to the correct bird. I think there are a lot of dogs with drive, but a lot of them are back at the flyer station, again.

Drive and courage without memory isn't that impressive.
 
#19 ·
As a trainer, I feel that I am not putting thing in that are not already there. You can think of it as a big ball of clay. It will always be clay, but put a good pair of hands on it and it is a work of art. Same goes with dogs, I can't put anything in them, ( trainers can take it out ) but what I can do is focus and shape whats already there.

The breeding thing is the 64 million dollar question?????? and we are all looking for it.

I can tell you how I look at it. The more driven the dogs are the less train-ability they have. I call them high maintenance. These types have to have continual
reinforcement and training.

The ones I like the most are the dogs that are not as driven, but have good drive. I call them honest dogs. They have high train-ability and a memory like a elephant. With these dog I have to be aware that it's all in the bonding if you cross them, or over train them, they will give you the middle finger.

I like to think that their willing to please is what motivate them, but I really don't know. Probably because it can be different things.

Keith.
 
#23 ·
As a trainer, I feel that I am not putting thing in that are not already there. You can think of it as a big ball of clay. It will always be clay, but put a good pair of hands on it and it is a work of art. Same goes with dogs, I can't put anything in them, ( trainers can take it out ) but what I can do is focus and shape whats already there.

I can tell you how I look at it. The more driven the dogs are the less train-ability they have. I call them high maintenance. These types have to have continual
reinforcement and training.

The ones I like the most are the dogs that are not as driven, but have good drive. I call them honest dogs. They have high train-ability and a memory like a elephant. With these dog I have to be aware that it's all in the bonding if you cross them, or over train them, they will give you the middle finger.

Keith.
I don't consider it putting something into the dog,I consider it enhancing what is there ...Some times I have seen great improvements in a dogs performance...I think we have all seen that wild eyed dog that is running wide open all the time but there is very little control of the dog...Some are brought under control with sever training practices..Breaking is in my mind...Would you consider this taking it out of the dog or shaping what is already there...? Trainability is one trait highly desirable to have in any animal or person...Steve S
 
#28 · (Edited)
Hmmm a very Heady thread; y'all are taxing my brain with deep philosophy; that I'm trying to convert it into English. (I might need a drink) ;)
 
#30 · (Edited)
Get two and give us your take on the subject...Steve S


PS:I'm starting two dogs on the FF program today ...One shows a high resistance to pressure , the other one not so resistive...What can I expect to encounter with the dogs...? What trait is being displayed by this behavior..? Both love to retrieve birds at this time...Steve S
 
#29 ·
Breaking is in my mind...Would you consider this taking it out of the dog or shaping what is already there...? Trainability is one trait highly desirable to have in any animal or person...Steve S

Kieth, what is your take on my comment above....? As for sever training I come from the 60 and 70's era of time and things were a lot different training wise back then...Steve S
 
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