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Thread: Correcting pulling between holding blinds

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwickLabs View Post
    It comes with the territory of inexperience. Coming to grips with it is a process.

    Here is one "page" dedicated to my vast experience and slow progress in changing. You might find some common ground to provide a better perspective of what the issues really are. It is probably best explained in a single phrase "coined" by my pro friend "It's not the dog."

    The Hunt Test "Wise" Dog (link)
    Why did the dog get so bad in the first place? That is the OP's question. Do you blame it on the dog or the situation and training(or lack thereof) at an early stage in the dogs life?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    Why did the dog get so bad in the first place? That is the OP's question. Do you blame it on the dog or the situation and training(or lack thereof) at an early stage in the dogs life?
    He was not like this as late as 10 months of age (he is now 15 months) and does not behave like this except at HT's or group training sessions. Like I posted earlier I can take him to a petsmart, lowes, flea markets etc with no issues.

    I could be wrong but here is my therory. At a training day last May the honor dog grabbed the duck from his mouth as he passed by while he was delivering to me. I immediately asked the person acting as line judge for a duck off the rack and gave it to him to hold for a few moments before commanding drop and then leaving the line. A month later at the next training day he was running a water series. While swimming out to his mark I see a dog from the corner of my eye swimming out to his mark from the masters group. Guess a dog got loose from a truck, I dont know where it came from exactly. The bird boy from the masters group was able to turn that dog around at the last moment by hand tossing out a bird and yelling hey hey. My dog was able to get that mark.

    However, ever since he has been a puller between holding blinds, and literally squeals like a pig swimming out to marks in water series. He cannot get to that duck fast enough when other dogs are around be it land or water. I think he has developed a cumpulsion to being competitive and with my inexperience I do not know how to deal with it.

    I very much liked Jim's feedback from kwicklabs and will do a self examination and give that a try.
    Last edited by freezeland; 10-29-2013 at 01:44 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    If you really think competition from other dogs is the issue then get a couple of buddies and create that competitive environment. It's not terribly hard to create that particular element. Make him wait while a bunch of dogs get to retrieve at short distance. Jim (Kwiklab) has a ton of stuff on that in his materials also (as I recall).

    He may need to learn that every bird isn't his as part of what you're doing.
    Darrin Greene

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    Sit means sit. There are no to hollers in dog training

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by freezeland View Post
    He was not like this as late as 10 months of age (he is now 15 months) and does not behave like this except at HT's or group training sessions. Like I posted earlier I can take him to a petsmart, lowes, flea markets etc with no issues.

    I could be wrong but here is my therory. At a training day last May the honor dog grabbed the duck from his mouth as he passed by while he was delivering to me. I immediately asked the person acting as line judge for a duck off the rack and gave it to him to hold for a few moments before commanding drop and then leaving the line. A month later at the next training day he was running a water series. While swimming out to his mark I see a dog from the corner of my eye swimming out to his mark from the masters group. Guess a dog got loose from a truck, I dont know where it came from exactly. The bird boy from the masters group was able to turn that dog around at the last moment by hand tossing out a bird and yelling hey hey. My dog was able to get that mark.

    However, ever since he has been a puller between holding blinds, and literally squeals like a pig swimming out to marks in water series. He cannot get to that duck fast enough when other dogs are around be it land or water. I think he has developed a cumpulsion to being competitive and with my inexperience I do not know how to deal with it.

    I very much liked Jim's feedback from kwicklabs and will do a self examination and give that a try.
    I'd actually meant Jim's personal dog he gained experience from about poor line manners. I thought a good explanation of how he though his personal dog became so bad would possibly help your situation.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny View Post
    Sit means sit. There are no to hollers in dog training
    I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say there other than sit means sit. I know that.....

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    I'd actually meant Jim's personal dog he gained experience from about poor line manners. I thought a good explanation of how he though his personal dog became so bad would possibly help your situation.
    I'd be interested to know to, as well as his thoughts on the experience I described that happened with my dog

  8. #28
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    Haven't read any of the links here but one of my dogs has a patience problem, causing pulling and trying to get out of the blind. Now much better with improved obedience and making him wait through several dogs in each holding blind when training- this is a daily part of his training. He is with a pro so they have several people there and lots of dogs to work daily, real birds, poppers, thunder launchers, and a duck noise machine. He is actually left on a down and has to stay in the blinds by himself. He also has to heel backwards (back up with handler walking backwards) often now as well- what others have said, making him pay attention to you and try to stay with you.

  9. #29
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    Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore
    I'd actually meant Jim's personal dog he gained experience from about poor line manners. I thought a good explanation of how he though his personal dog became so bad would possibly help your situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by freezeland View Post
    I'd be interested to know to, as well as his thoughts on the experience I described that happened with my dog
    What is the definition of "A Test Wise Dog"? I thought the definition was a dog that we have taught that there is a lower standard at a test but maybe I'm wrong?
    Erik B.

  10. #30
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    "I'd actually meant Jim's personal dog he gained experience from about poor line manners. I thought a good explanation of how he though his personal dog became so bad would possibly help your situation."

    The problem might be in coming up with a "good explanation". I whelped the litter that Daisy was from. She ended up with me because I couldn't really in good conscience "palm her off" on a buyer. Daisy was a demanding "me, me....me first puppy". My first mistake was in allowing that spoiled pup to fully develop her demanding ways.

    After forcing her, Daisy was sent off to a Pro for evaluation. I took her back home after a month. She was extremely "mousy" when the e-collar came out (not when she left) and yet a driven pup in training. Her marking was mediocre....mostly because she was so animated and nervous at the line. However, she eventually (several months) came back to her old self.......some of which I should have avoided. She trained well and was not entered in a test until she was 18 months old.

    Evidently, I did not want to acknowledge her anxiety and animation at the line as an issue. I keep coming back to my pro friend's comment....."It's not the dog." which pretty much sums up how difficult it is to assume the responsibility for the dog's behavior.

    Fast forward through many trying months at the line....she gets her AKC Senior Title. However, there was no way her line manners would allow the next step. The week of realization and discovery came at four years old. I setup a very difficult triple with two blinds (AKC Master level at the Stoughton Field trial grounds). She smacked it. The next day I was training with friends and the setup was a simple double with a cold blind off to one side. She picked up the "go bird" and then on the memory when I said "Daisy"..she looked up at me, cocked her head and said "What?" She had no idea where it was or if one had even been thrown, I finally got her kicked off the line with the "go as sent routine" and she rather wandered off cluelessly with a sloppy handling. The blind was a very "hacky".

    The worst part of the morning was that I had bragged to my friends about how sensational she had looked the day before.

    That evening I went home and examined the past four years of her journal entries. Throwing out September through February (hunting season and nasty weather winters) she had never come in heat during those times. Training (when done and not often was always sharp). From April through August and a full month before any signs of coming in heat training consistently "went south". For a full month after going out of heat the training was NEVER very good either. Frustration was evident in the journal entries.

    Her issues were mostly driven by anxiety. If there were a Bell shaped curve for how a bitch handled her heat cycles in terms of mental stability, Daisy had to be in the extreme. And of course, I was putting pressure on a bitch whose hormones were out of whack for long periods of time. No wonder she demonstrated anxiety.......and I just never saw it.

    I struggled with having her spayed for about two weeks. Then decided to do what was best for her. Since then training has been more consistent. The problem is that during those first four years "baggage" was created that was impossible to erase...even though I tried. Why is it that many new trainers become "experts" at trying to fix things and all the experts spend so much energy trying to fix a dog and trainer they know nothing about? Anyway that is another thread. I am happy to say Daisy is more content and I'm more relaxed. She is my “go to” waterfowl dog.

    I am just one of many, many owners that started late with their retriever training. Taffey (see signature) was my first retriever training venture 13 years ago when I was 60. Three more have been trained and I don't wash anyone out. I'm 73 now and feel the axiom of "avoiding mistakes" makes more sense now that I actually know what a mistake looks like. The next pup might find his road a tad smoother (or not).

    The Website was written to keep track of my progress (good, bad and everything in between). Forgetting inhibits learning so the journals and pages help to remind me of the ever present task of doing what the dog needs “in the moment” and remembering that there are tools in place to restore balance more quickly. That's what is most important for a dog

    In retrospect, I find this "story" may not help the OP unless he finds out what his dog needs. Often it is usually more than one incident or issue that creates problems.

    Sorry for the looong story, but you asked. My wife just asked me when I was going to watch Lylah tonight.

    edit: In the rush to baby-sit proof reading was left out until later.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 10-30-2013 at 12:45 AM.
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