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Correcting pulling between holding blinds

7K views 33 replies 17 participants last post by  Mary Lynn Metras 
#1 ·
I train in the yard with holding blinds. My dog goes very calm from one to another in the yard. Not so at a Hunt Test. Yesterday I heard of a suggestion to put a rope choke lead around the dogs waiste or mid section so to speak. I was told by this person it is very effective in stopping a dog from pulling between holding blinds on the way to the line. I didn't try it, and dont know that I would try that out of fear of hurting the dog seriously like squeezing the stomach or spleen. Does anyone know if this method of correction is safe for the dog and is effective. Obviously one cannot take the dog all the way to the line in this manner.
 
#2 ·
commonly used in agility, never heard of it hurting a dog. But it's not considered a "correction", more of an on-the-spot harness.
 
#3 · (Edited)
#4 ·
Wayne,

Yes I have an ecollar. I do belong to a club and we have monthly training days that are pretty structured to simulate a test. They are just that though, once a month which isn't enough. I should probably try to find a smaller group where I can pratice this much more frequent if I want to take this dog beyond a JH. Was just curious if anyone had tried the rope around the mid section and its saftey and effectiveness. Thanks for the good feedback and video though. You always give folks good advice on this site.
 
#7 ·
The lead works well, and on the neck is more than enough. The trick is to never let the dog take up the slack. The dog needs to make the mistake, and then you go the opposite direction just before the dog reaches the end of the slack....give a sharp tug at the same time the slack runs out so the dog learns it has to stay with you. A dog can't pull you from holding blind to holding blind unless you're pulling too. Don't give the dog a steady hold to pull against.
 
#8 ·
You won't injure the dog using the half hitch around the waist. That's how most all the pointers are started on whoa in the world. It's not a bad way to gain control of a dog who's turned into a mess or hasn't had leash training early enough
 
#9 ·
Why when it is only at tests he does the pulling? You stated he was good at home. I would try to do more group training if possible, where you can hopefully recreate the scenario and then you correct him.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I use the half hitch trick with all types and sizes of dog, never been a problem with injury.

As for the heeling discussion I will present a slightly different perspective.

Your problem goes all the way back to the very foundation of obedience, which is having the dog engaged with you, rather than his environment/wants/desires. With a retriever this can be a careful balancing act between the dog's mindset before he leaves the running line and after. That balance also applies between marks and blinds. We obviously want our dogs to be independent and courageous at certain times, and extremely obedient at others. This is one of the many challenges that make retriever games so difficult relative to some others.

There are a number of ways to promote engagement using both reward and punishment, but in the end it's all about the dog's expectation of what's going to happen next in a given situation.

I didn't read Sharon's article (yet) about the wonder lead but based on what she wrote above I can quickly figure out that we're making a change in direction when the dog starts getting out of position, which creates a consequence for not paying attention to where he belongs. We're not giving any warnings or saying anything, just changing directions. The smart dog will learn pretty quickly to pay attention to the whereabouts of his handler if every time his mind wanders the handler moves and a correction happens. The tool used to make the correction is irrelevant really. It could be the wonder lead, a pinch collar, choke chain, piece of rope or the e-collar. It doesn't really matter. What seems to matter is being unpredictable to the dog so that that have to pay attention in order to avoid the correction. That means turning frequently and sharply, with no cues or warnings. I say heel to bring the dog into position and here or sit when I step off so that they know what I expect, otherwise, there is no talking. That includes teaching auto sit when we stop (which plays into 100 other things).

The positive method is pretty simple. Just look around youtube and there are 100 videos on how to teach a dog to heel with treats.

As with everything, this training follows the usual premise of increasing distraction. Start with 1:1 and little to no distractions and gradually build them up until you have the ultimate distraction (BIRDS!). It takes planning. time and careful execution to build it into a mindless habit that works in all situations.

You might want to think about getting away from testing for a while until you get this under control. If you can't heel from blind to blind without a ton of corrections, whatever's happening on line and in the field can't be helping support your long term objectives.
 
#12 ·
Thanks for all the great feed back I have received. I am going to go read Sharon's article in a moment.

I wish everyone here could see what is going on with this dog. He is OB trained. In the yard he is fine, and when in the field by himsef working with birds, or taking him out to places like a flea market, Lowes, petsmart, etc there are no issues as was described when he is going from blind to blind at a HT or monthly club day.

Now take him to a Hunt Test or a group training day and Satan comes out. In that statement I mean he runs all the marks great. It's getting him to the mat in that environment is the issue. This is also the dog that squeals like a pig going out to the water marks in the water series. He is extremely high drive in a HT or group training session where he has a sense of competition
 
#13 ·
This is also the dog that squeals like a pig going out to the water marks in the water series. He is extremely high drive in a HT or group training session where he has a sense of competition
What you're experiencing is simply a break down in obedience under the most distracting situation your dog encounters. If you think competition is the issue then you can easily create that with another buddy or two. I suspect it's more an issue of frustration over being made to wait though. One thing people forget about hunting tests and training days is how much slower the pace is relative to a training session with your buddies. You dog runs once every six dogs in training and once every 60 in a test. You move through holding blinds pretty quickly in training because you don't normally use 3-5 of them and line of 5 dogs in advance. There usually aren't enough people for that to happen since others have to be in the field throwing so you walk into the last holding blind while the dog before you is finishing up and off you go pretty fast. It all slows down at a test. Also, you are probably more fidgety and working harder for perfection on line in a testing environment than you are in training. This stands to reason especially at the water marks. Another thing is how many birds you dog gets in a training session vs. a test. In a MH test you're going to see as many as 13-15 birds where in training if you run two series it may only be 6 or 8. Water marks being last he is going to be amped through the roof and frustrated because you're insisting he be steady and line up right on memory birds.

Just some things to think about.
 
#14 ·
It comes with the territory of inexperience. Coming to grips with it is a process.

Here is one "page" dedicated to my vast experience and slow progress in changing. You might find some common ground to provide a better perspective of what the issues really are. It is probably best explained in a single phrase "coined" by my pro friend "It's not the dog."


The Hunt Test "Wise" Dog (link)
 
#19 ·
It comes with the territory of inexperience. Coming to grips with it is a process.

Here is one "page" dedicated to my vast experience and slow progress in changing. You might find some common ground to provide a better perspective of what the issues really are. It is probably best explained in a single phrase "coined" by my pro friend "It's not the dog."


The Hunt Test "Wise" Dog (link)
Jim

Now this was insightful, and helpful. Thank you!!
 
#15 ·
Totally agree with Darrin. There are other ways to get the excitement up, also. Best money I ever spent was a regular obedience class. Not for the instruction but for crowded environment of 10 other dogs and people. OB was rock solid in the park and yard. Not so much at the first class.


Heck even weekly trips to practice heeling at Petsmart will help. Then move up the distractions.
It isn't an equipment issue, it is a time and exposure issue.
 
#16 ·
I have been working through similar issues with my dog. After I got an expert involved, the first thing he made ME do was admit the dog was f-ing me in those situations and taking over as pack leader. Its hard to admit sometimes and any time you make an excuse, just insert "my dog is f-ing me". After that it all came down to obedience and I believe the finished product is a dog that pays attention to you and only you, no matter the situation. It is really hard not to let the dog run when in a group training or test but that's when we let our dogs F us the most if we let them.
 
#17 ·
Dogs are situational learners and also read handlers better than we read dogs. He's learned HT's are exciting and is feeding off your excitement as well. Finding ways to get both in training is key to working through OB.

/Paul
 
#18 ·
A "routine" in the holding blinds help also.

A submissive posture like havin g the dog "down" (lie down), so it is facing OUT of the blind, with you standing upright,making sure to keep eye contact with the dog.

The way in wich you call your dog toheel as you leave that blind and progress to the next blind, should also become a "routine".

I step back from the blind, and have the dog come to ME which will be in a direction AWAY from the line, then once the dog is at heel, start a slow deliberate walk to the next blind, keeping that heel standard very high. This is where the Wonder lead works well. Keep slack in the lead, and when coorection is necessary, or when the dog "Pulls" the lead instantly applies pressure.

ALWAYS at training days, set up holding blinds and make this part of every training day,


Gooser
 
#23 ·
If you really think competition from other dogs is the issue then get a couple of buddies and create that competitive environment. It's not terribly hard to create that particular element. Make him wait while a bunch of dogs get to retrieve at short distance. Jim (Kwiklab) has a ton of stuff on that in his materials also (as I recall).

He may need to learn that every bird isn't his as part of what you're doing.
 
#28 ·
Haven't read any of the links here but one of my dogs has a patience problem, causing pulling and trying to get out of the blind. Now much better with improved obedience and making him wait through several dogs in each holding blind when training- this is a daily part of his training. He is with a pro so they have several people there and lots of dogs to work daily, real birds, poppers, thunder launchers, and a duck noise machine. He is actually left on a down and has to stay in the blinds by himself. He also has to heel backwards (back up with handler walking backwards) often now as well- what others have said, making him pay attention to you and try to stay with you.
 
#30 · (Edited)
"I'd actually meant Jim's personal dog he gained experience from about poor line manners. I thought a good explanation of how he though his personal dog became so bad would possibly help your situation."

The problem might be in coming up with a "good explanation". I whelped the litter that Daisy was from. She ended up with me because I couldn't really in good conscience "palm her off" on a buyer. Daisy was a demanding "me, me....me first puppy". My first mistake was in allowing that spoiled pup to fully develop her demanding ways.

After forcing her, Daisy was sent off to a Pro for evaluation. I took her back home after a month. She was extremely "mousy" when the e-collar came out (not when she left) and yet a driven pup in training. Her marking was mediocre....mostly because she was so animated and nervous at the line. However, she eventually (several months) came back to her old self.......some of which I should have avoided. She trained well and was not entered in a test until she was 18 months old.

Evidently, I did not want to acknowledge her anxiety and animation at the line as an issue. I keep coming back to my pro friend's comment....."It's not the dog." which pretty much sums up how difficult it is to assume the responsibility for the dog's behavior.

Fast forward through many trying months at the line....she gets her AKC Senior Title. However, there was no way her line manners would allow the next step. The week of realization and discovery came at four years old. I setup a very difficult triple with two blinds (AKC Master level at the Stoughton Field trial grounds). She smacked it. The next day I was training with friends and the setup was a simple double with a cold blind off to one side. She picked up the "go bird" and then on the memory when I said "Daisy"..she looked up at me, cocked her head and said "What?" She had no idea where it was or if one had even been thrown, I finally got her kicked off the line with the "go as sent routine" and she rather wandered off cluelessly with a sloppy handling. The blind was a very "hacky".

The worst part of the morning was that I had bragged to my friends about how sensational she had looked the day before.

That evening I went home and examined the past four years of her journal entries. Throwing out September through February (hunting season and nasty weather winters) she had never come in heat during those times. Training (when done and not often was always sharp). From April through August and a full month before any signs of coming in heat training consistently "went south". For a full month after going out of heat the training was NEVER very good either. Frustration was evident in the journal entries.

Her issues were mostly driven by anxiety. If there were a Bell shaped curve for how a bitch handled her heat cycles in terms of mental stability, Daisy had to be in the extreme. And of course, I was putting pressure on a bitch whose hormones were out of whack for long periods of time. No wonder she demonstrated anxiety.......and I just never saw it.

I struggled with having her spayed for about two weeks. Then decided to do what was best for her. Since then training has been more consistent. The problem is that during those first four years "baggage" was created that was impossible to erase...even though I tried. Why is it that many new trainers become "experts" at trying to fix things and all the experts spend so much energy trying to fix a dog and trainer they know nothing about? Anyway that is another thread. I am happy to say Daisy is more content and I'm more relaxed. She is my “go to” waterfowl dog.

I am just one of many, many owners that started late with their retriever training. Taffey (see signature) was my first retriever training venture 13 years ago when I was 60. Three more have been trained and I don't wash anyone out. I'm 73 now and feel the axiom of "avoiding mistakes" makes more sense now that I actually know what a mistake looks like. The next pup might find his road a tad smoother (or not).

The Website was written to keep track of my progress (good, bad and everything in between). Forgetting inhibits learning so the journals and pages help to remind me of the ever present task of doing what the dog needs “in the moment” and remembering that there are tools in place to restore balance more quickly. That's what is most important for a dog

In retrospect, I find this "story" may not help the OP unless he finds out what his dog needs. Often it is usually more than one incident or issue that creates problems.

Sorry for the looong story, but you asked. My wife just asked me when I was going to watch Lylah tonight.

edit: In the rush to baby-sit proof reading was left out until later.
 
#31 ·
"I'd actually meant Jim's personal dog he gained experience from about poor line manners. I thought a good explanation of how he though his personal dog became so bad would possibly help your situation."

The problem might be in coming up with a "good explanation". I whelped the litter
that Daisy was from. She ended up with me because I couldn't really in good conscience "palm her off" on a buyer. Daisy was a demanding "me, me....me first puppy". My first mistake was in allowing that spoiled pup develop her demanding ways.

After forcing her, Daisy was sent off to a Pro for evaluation. I took her back home after a month. She was extremely "mousy" when the e-collar came out and yet a driven pup in training. Her marking was mediocre....mostly because she was so animated and nervous at the line. However, she eventually(severtal months) came back to her old self.......some of which I should have avoided. She trained well and was not entered in a test until she was 18 months old.

Evidently, I did not want to acknowledge her anxiety and animation at the line as an issue. I keep coming back to my pro friend's comment....."It's not the dog." which pretty much sums up how difficult it is to assume the responsibility for the dog's behavior.

Fast forward through many trying months at the line....she gets her AKC Senior Title.
However, there was no way her line manners would allow the next step. The week of realization and discovery came at four years old. I setup a very difficult triple with two blinds (AKC Master level at the Stoughton Field trial grounds). She smacked it. The next day I was training with friends and the setup was a simple double with a cold blind off to one side. She picked up the "go bird" and then on the memory when I said "Daisy" she looked up at me, cocked her head and said "What?" She had no idea where it was or if one had even been thrown, I finally got her kicked off the line with the "go as sent routine" and she rather wandered off cluelessly with a sloppy handling. The blind was a very "hacky".

The worst part of the morning was that I had bragged to my friends about how sensational she had looked the day before.

That evening I went home and examined the past four years of her journal entries. Throwing out September through February (hunting season and nasty weather winters) she had never come in heat during those times. Training (when done and not often was always sharp). From April through August and a full month before any signs of coming in heat training consistently "went south". For a full month after going out of heat the training was NEVER very good either. Frustration was evident in the journal entries.

Her issues were mostly driven by anxiety. If there were a Bell shaped curve for how a bitch handled her heat cycles in terms of mental stability, Daisy had to be in the extreme. And of course, I was putting pressure on a bitch whose hormones out of whack. No wonder she demonstrated anxiety.......and I just never saw it.

I struggled with having her spayed for about two weeks. Then decided to do what was best for her. Since then training has been more consistent. The problem is that during those first four years
"baggage" was created that was impossible to erase...even thought I tried. Why is it that many new trainers become "experts" at trying fix things and all the experts spend so much energy trying to fix a dog and trainer they know nothing about? Anyway that is another thread. I am happy to say Daisy is more content and I'm more relaxed. She is my “go to” waterfowl dog.

I am just one of many, many owners that started late with their retriever training. Taffey (see signature) was my first retriever training venture 13 years ago when I was 60. Three more have been trained and I don't wash anyone out. I'm 73 now and feel the axiom of "avoiding mistakes" makes more sense now that I actually know what a mistake looks like. The next pup might find his road a tad smoother (or not).

The Website was written to keep track of my progress (good, bad and everything in between). Forgetting inhibits learning so the journals and pages help to remind me of the ever present task of doing what the dog needs “in the moment” and remembering that there are tools in place to restore balance more quickly. That's what is most important for a dog

In retrospect, I find this "story" may not help the OP unless he finds out what his dog needs. Often is usually more that one incident or issue that creates a problems.

Sorry of the looong story, but you asked. My wife just asked me when I was going to watch Lylah tonight.
Jim

Thank you for sharing your time with us this evening and giving some insight in to your experience with Daisy. I need to do a self examination as I mentioned in an earlier post. I also believe it may be worth letting a pro evaluate him. One of my considerations that must come in to play is my long term goal with this dog. Do I want to continue to play the dog games with him beyond a JH, or just make a field goose dog out of him which was my original intent when I bought him? I need to decide that and commit to one or the other.

Thank you again.
 
#33 ·
"Do I want to continue to play the dog games with him beyond a JH or just make a field goose dog out of him which was my original intent when I bought him? I need to decide that and commit to one or the other."

Why must it be "one or the other"?
He is fine when we are by ourselves, but becomes extremely excited when we get in a HT or group training environment. My statement of "one or the other" would be better stated as do I want to fight this battle and continue running HT's beyond JH, or just hunt field geese with him. I train alone and getting him in to a group environment to work through this is a monthly proposition at best. Unless I can find a smaller group locally to me I do not think that is an often enough repitition. Sending him to a pro for an extended period of time probably wont be an option for me.
 
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