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Thread: O-care ... constructive alternative proposals

  1. #11
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Are in favor of grandfathering junk insurance?
    I could agree, as mentioned before, that some plans were not very good ones. But transitioning them out could have been less painful for such plans, i.e. stop selling them to new participants, but allow anyone who already had one to keep it. Eventually those policyholders will eventually either die or buy up to better insurance as their health needs might change.

    For 50-yr-olds without children, it seems reasonable that they could keep a plan that does not include maternity benefits. Their plans might otherwise be quite adequate. Their plans might not include dental (Medicare does not include dental). Will the govt mandate that Medicare patients carry dental coverage now?

    Ever-growing numbers of doctors are refusing Medicaid patients. Will the expansion of Medicaid be of much help to those people who will now depend on Medicaid, but can't find a doctor to treat them? They might as well be uninsured. If they can't find a doctor who accepts Medicaid, they will still be going to the emergency rooms when they get sick.

    Buzz, you are an intelligent person. You work hard and are employed in what appears to be a responsible position. Is every decision or solution always all or nothing? This law was passed hastily without careful examination. It has numerous flaws. Experts say that the website debacle cannot be fixed; the best fix is to start from scratch. Isn't it possible that the law, itself, is the same?
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    There are some huge holes in the laws. Some of it has to do with how it is being implemented on the state level, some of it is areas that may need to be reviewed and fixed. The website in supposed to be up and running in the next 4 weeks, we will see if that helps. If not there are other less easier ways to buy coverage still available. We have to keep going forward to see if law itself is bad. The start of it is very rocky I agree, but there is certainly a chance it can still right itself and work fine once started.
    During break time at obedience school, two dogs were talking.
    One said to the other..."The thing I hate about obedience school is you learn ALL this stuff you will never use in the real world."

  3. #13
    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    Maybe, you just don't know what real freedom is. We have a government that is spying on its own people, a revenue collection system that takes a theif's cut of one's income, government forced mandates, lobbyist controlled Congress, a government that forces you to contribute to SS then steals the money(SS is this countries largest Debt holder), one that refuses to secure our boarders and wants to reward the illegals with Amnesty because they are cowards when it comes to doing their job and a government that is becoming more and more socialist everyday by villifying those that are productive! A government that promotes Croney Capitalism and discourages Free Trade. The bigger the government the more Liberties we cede to them!

    All of that is problems that I am concerned with as much as you are. I am not going to try and change your mind though. You can feel how you like, because it is a FREE country!
    During break time at obedience school, two dogs were talking.
    One said to the other..."The thing I hate about obedience school is you learn ALL this stuff you will never use in the real world."

  4. #14
    Senior Member Brad Turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post
    There are some huge holes in the laws. Some of it has to do with how it is being implemented on the state level, some of it is areas that may need to be reviewed and fixed. The website in supposed to be up and running in the next 4 weeks, we will see if that helps. If not there are other less easier ways to buy coverage still available. We have to keep going forward to see if law itself is bad. The start of it is very rocky I agree, but there is certainly a chance it can still right itself and work fine once started.
    Kind of like "... we have to pass this law to find out what's in it."
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post
    All of that is problems that I am concerned with as much as you are. I am not going to try and change your mind though. You can feel how you like, because it is a FREE country!
    But, not as FREE as we use to be! What is the future of our Freedom when we have a 17 TRILLION Debt? One of my favorite examples; when the US was sold on creating an Income Tax over 100 years ago, we were told that the top rate would be 3%. Well, we can see how our government has abused the Income Tax today. The more one pays to the government, the less Freedom one has. Our government no longer works for the people but, the people for the government! Why should law abiding citizens be subjected to any Gun Laws? Why does a Free people have to support those that refuse to work or pay for their Healthcare? I could cite more but, I think you get the idea of where I am coming from. The general rule of thumb is; the bigger the government, the less Freedom for the people. Because the bigger the government, the more they will take from those that are productive. Big government can not created real jobs nor create wealth. They can only take wealth and the fact that they try to create jobs just shows how much they don't believe in the private sector of in a free market. And, the private sector and free markets are the cornerstones of a free people!
    Last edited by Franco; 10-30-2013 at 12:57 PM.
    It's such a shame that in the USA, defending Liberty has become such a heroic deed.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    But, not as FREE as we use to be! What is the future of our Freedom when we have a 17 TRILLION Debt? One of my favorite examples; when the US was sold on creating an Income Tax over 100 years ago, we were told that the top rate would be 3%. Well, we can see how our government has abused the Income Tax today. The more one pays to the government, the less Freedom one has. Our government no longer works for the people but, the people for the government! Why should law abiding citizens be subjected to any Gun Laws? Why does a Free people have to support those that refuse to work or pay for their Healthcare? I could cite more but, I think you get the idea of where I am coming from. The general rule of thumb is; the bigger the government, the less Freedom for the people. Because the bigger the government, the more they will take from those that are productive. Big government can not created real jobs nor create wealth. They can only take wealth and the fact that they try to create jobs just shows how much they don't believe in the private sector of in a free market. And, the private sector and free markets are the cornerstones of a free people!
    Outstanding post. Ditto. Bingo. X-2. .....................
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post
    There are some huge holes in the laws. Some of it has to do with how it is being implemented on the state level, some of it is areas that may need to be reviewed and fixed. The website in supposed to be up and running in the next 4 weeks, we will see if that helps. If not there are other less easier ways to buy coverage still available. We have to keep going forward to see if law itself is bad. The start of it is very rocky I agree, but there is certainly a chance it can still right itself and work fine once started.
    One cannot "fix" the laws of mathematics, and this law is operating based on wishful thinking v. mathematics.

    Just a few mathematical problems:

    The older, sicker individuals are more highly motivated to sign up than the younger, healthier individuals. Without the younger, healthier paying the freight, the rates have to go up because the costs of the older, sicker people cannot be supported otherwise. The size of the fines incentivizes the young and healthy to defer getting coverage.

    Even Medicare charges higher rates to individuals who defer signing up immediately at 65. I have heard of no such penalty for O-care.

    Due to higher costs of health insurance, more employers are opting to cut hours to avoid providing health coverage. That is the unions' gripe ... destruction of the 40-hr week. This affects those at the lower end of the food chain most. More people on Medicaid and larger subsidies as a result. Ballooning costs for all taxpayers. The estimates of O-care costs have already been adjusted far above the original numbers.

    Employees of small businesses who do not presently have health coverage will pay more, in many cases, for their individual coverage than before.

    Many doctors and hospitals are not included in the exchange networks. That means that some of the theoretically insured will be paying more out-of-pocket for care if they go out of the network. They will essentially be "uninsured" when they go out of network. For those who still maintain "traditional" major medical plans v. PPOs, this is not presently an issue.

    Then there is the administration of a law that is over 2000 pages long, already having generated over 20,000 pages of regulations!

    Throughout the law rules are left up to Sebelius (and her successors). Those rules could change dramatically. Changes that were not part of the legislation as voted upon. It's no wonder that now that the law has passed, we still really don't know quite what's in it, Pelosi notwithstanding.

    If too many people get enmeshed in the law, do you really think that it would ever be abandoned? Think of the DO Education; DO Energy; farm subsidies, food stamps, or even attempts to modify SS or Medicare to save them from bankruptcy. Everybody starts screaming about throwing grandma off the cliff or starving children, rather than acknowledging that those safety nets must be modified if they are to be saved.

    The initial failure of the website is just one obvious example of how cronyism and agenda take precedence over competency and concern for the constituents in the admitted intent (by both Reid and Obama) to move toward a single-payer system.

    There is also a "box" that the Ds find themselves in. Based on how the law was passed, if something cannot be fixed by bureaucratic mandate (Sebelius) or unconstitutional executive order (POTUS does not have the Constitutional right to change laws as written, or waive them), could amendments to O-care ever get through Congress?

    Since Obama and Reid have both stated openly that they believe the ultimate goal is single-payer, I have little faith that they care how rocky the road is for O-care or the people whose lives it touches. To them, it is merely a means to an end.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    Kind of like "... we have to pass this law to find out what's in it."

    It is a big program with a lot of moving parts. It is difficult to predict how insurance companies, employers, citizens and state governments are going to react to the law. All of that is out of the scope of what is in the fine print of the law. The only way to see how these other pieces will move is to push forward. I will be honest, I have some real concerns about what I am seeing happen, but it is to soon to make a determination if it will be successful or not. I sure wouldn't go this far and scrap it before we know if it will work or not.
    During break time at obedience school, two dogs were talking.
    One said to the other..."The thing I hate about obedience school is you learn ALL this stuff you will never use in the real world."

  9. #19
    Senior Member Brad Turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post
    Kind of like "... we have to pass this law to find out what's in it."

    It is a big program with a lot of moving parts. It is difficult to predict how insurance companies, employers, citizens and state governments are going to react to the law. All of that is out of the scope of what is in the fine print of the law. The only way to see how these other pieces will move is to push forward. I will be honest, I have some real concerns about what I am seeing happen, but it is to soon to make a determination if it will be successful or not. I sure wouldn't go this far and scrap it before we know if it will work or not.
    People who are much more versed in this than you or I have been predicting the consequences of this law for several years now. Actions have repercussions. It seems that the only people who are still for this are the people who are getting their insurance subsidized by the young and healthy, or people who would blindly follow Obama into a burning building.

    Personally, I have seen what the cost of a life threatening illness can do to a family. I feel sorry for anyone who has to go through that. It is not fair, and these things do not discriminate. The problem is that the government has proven repeatedly that they can't manage anything. They screwed up social security (not so secure anymore). There are millions of dollars in Medicare/Medicaid fraud every year. Name a government program that dosen't have waste.

    I will help people who are less fortunate than I, but I don't trust the government to do it.

  10. #20
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    But, not as FREE as we use to be! What is the future of our Freedom when we have a 17 TRILLION Debt? One of my favorite examples; when the US was sold on creating an Income Tax over 100 years ago, we were told that the top rate would be 3%. Well, we can see how our government has abused the Income Tax today. The more one pays to the government, the less Freedom one has. Our government no longer works for the people but, the people for the government! Why should law abiding citizens be subjected to any Gun Laws? Why does a Free people have to support those that refuse to work or pay for their Healthcare? I could cite more but, I think you get the idea of where I am coming from. The general rule of thumb is; the bigger the government, the less Freedom for the people. Because the bigger the government, the more they will take from those that are productive. Big government can not created real jobs nor create wealth. They can only take wealth and the fact that they try to create jobs just shows how much they don't believe in the private sector of in a free market. And, the private sector and free markets are the cornerstones of a free people!

    Excellent!!!!!

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