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Thread: Chesapeak Bay Retriever--the real deal

  1. #51
    Senior Member achiro's Avatar
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    Ha! Poor Bob is just looking for a pup. I wonder if there are other threads somewhere to fight about DM?
    "The thing I admire about the rat tail is that it takes commitment. It's not like one day you just decide you want one, you have to grow out that bad boy and you have to repeatedly convince the hairdresser to trust you because it's a great idea."

  2. #52
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achiro View Post
    Ha! Poor Bob is just looking for a pup. I wonder if there are other threads somewhere to fight about DM?
    And you don't think this is an important consideration for someone "just looking for a pup"?

    JS
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  3. #53
    Senior Member achiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    And you don't think this is an important consideration for someone "just looking for a pup"?

    JS
    I think letting someone know about which health issues to look for is important but putting them through the never ending debate when all they've ask for is puppy advise isn't. He asked for advise toward a breeding/breeder and it is already lost in the middle of all these pages of words.
    Last edited by achiro; 11-02-2013 at 10:17 AM.
    "The thing I admire about the rat tail is that it takes commitment. It's not like one day you just decide you want one, you have to grow out that bad boy and you have to repeatedly convince the hairdresser to trust you because it's a great idea."

  4. #54
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    Amy, if popular sire syndrome is occurring or is a major threat to bottle necking why isnt factual information/ statistics included in their paper to support the fact? It is science? Without factual study based upon actual conditions and population statistic it is speculation and opinion. There are facts in the paper and there are conclusions being "assumed" which lack direct supporting evidence. Where are the numbers and facts which support the recommendation?

    It it would be interesting to know for sure how many affected sires are skipped in breeding versus clear sires of same titles and accomplishments. That could gain some basis for a scientific conclusion.
    Last edited by Paul "Happy" Gilmore; 11-02-2013 at 10:19 AM.

  5. #55
    Senior Member afdahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    Amy, if popular sire syndrome is occurring or is a major threat to bottle necking why isnt factual information/ statistics included in their paper to support the fact? It is science? Without factual study based upon actual conditions and population statistic it is speculation and opinion. There are facts in the paper and there are conclusions being "assumed" which lack direct supporting evidence. Where are the numbers and facts which support the recommendation?

    It it would be interesting to know for sure how many affected sires are skipped in breeding versus clear sires of same titles and accomplishments. That could gain some basis for a scientific conclusion.
    I only know the basics of population genetics, so cannot give a detailed explanation. I can answer the question of why Dr. Long didn't address popular sire syndrome in his paper. The reason is that it's textbook population genetics, researched, supported, repeated, and settled long ago. A research paper reports new information, regarding one specific study, in this case identifying one gene necessary (but not sufficient) for development of DM. Dr. Long only answered a few questions relating the study results to the practice of dog breeding. He called upon general population genetics knowledge to answer them but the popular sire question didn't come up.

    The questions collected by ACC and submitted to Dr. Bell were much more comprehensive and the popular sire issue did come up. It's a matter of not wanting to be "penny wise and pound foolish," salvaging a little diversity by breeding DM-at-risk dogs while destroying much more diversity by using one stud over and over and over.

    Amy Dahl

  6. #56
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classact2731 View Post
    Can you please refer me to where I can find this info? In any case carrier can be affected there is no known percentage of at risk that become affected and not all do so is it any different to produce carriers if you think there is a chance that they may become affected or is that ok. I keep hearing in all these discussions the same theme, that people would never produce a breeding that might produce a puppy that could have a chance of becoming affected. Well that chance is there with carriers too so by most people that should be out also. That does not leave much to work with We need to work toward better tests and less speculation.
    I agree, it would be helpful to know how many at risk dogs become affected, but I suspect that information will be hard to get as how many people are going to have their dogs necropsied and spinal tissue saved? Then there's the problem that many vets are just not familiar with the disease since it's rare except in certain breeds. So many vets (and owners) assume it's hips/arthritis when an older dog starts showing DM-like symptoms and/or losing use of its back legs. Not that much different from before there was a test or the knowledge of the high incidence of it in CBRs. Ask anyone who's had a lot of CBRs for many years and most will tell you of a dog they know suspect had DM, but they thought it was just arthritis. Right now the test for one of the genes involved in the study of the common form of DM is all we have. It's a tool, not a mandate but only the irresponsible are ignoring it so they can satisfy their egos while producing hundreds of at risk animals. There is a BIG difference in doing a special breeding of two outstanding dogs that might produce affecteds with bloodlines not readily available in other clear or carrier dogs vs. recklessly breeding mediocre at-risk dogs multiple times to other at risk, carrier and untested dogs. Likewise, it's also reckless to only ever breed clear to clear and base breeding decisions on clearances only.
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

  7. #57
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    Bob sound like a smart guy. The Chesapeake field trial specialty just ended. Look at the open and amateur stakes and go back to the breeders and look at the pedigree see how many have common sires or dams. Good breeders are not always going to post and puff their dogs up. They usually have people waiting.

    I personally and it is just my opinion stay away from breeders who are breeding DM at risk or don't care about it. Just my opinion and it could mean nothing
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  8. #58
    Senior Member GilWlsn's Avatar
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    When is the specialty over. I have a message out to someone that was probably there and don't want to keep leaving messages if there probably not home
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  9. #59
    Senior Member j towne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GilWlsn View Post
    When is the specialty over. I have a message out to someone that was probably there and don't want to keep leaving messages if there probably not home
    The specialty is over. Some people stayed for the Palmetto trial.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Andy Symons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achiro View Post
    I think letting someone know about which health issues to look for is important but putting them through the never ending debate when all they've ask for is puppy advise isn't. He asked for advise toward a breeding/breeder and it is already lost in the middle of all these pages of words.
    Welcome back to the Chesapeake world Russ. As you can see, some things never change. A post inquiring about litters turns into this mess. Never fails. Problem for the OP, the best litters are sold out before the breedings ever take place. That's not to say you can't find a good dog out there.

    Thank you Amy. Great posts, as usual. Wish I could be as eloquent as you.

    As the owner of a male carrier, it is frustrating Paul. Lot's of people on a list for one of his pups, but only one breeding recently. To have your phone ringing often with inquiries after his Derby career, to stop ringing after his DM status was obtained is insane. Also, having a successful male in this part of the country, can land you on the "blacklist".
    "Perfection is the enemy of good enough" Vince Stone

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