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The Impact of the "Popular Sire"

7K views 32 replies 20 participants last post by  suepuff 
#1 ·
If you are breeding, you've probably run into an article (maybe several) already about the "popular sire". If you haven't begun breeding yet, or just starting out, then this is a good article to begin with.

It simply explains why a popular sire has significant genetic impact on a given breed.

http://www.mydogdna.com/blog/pox-popular-sire
 
#2 ·
Very interesting. I've been adding Master National Finalists to my database at FindRetrievers. I've seen some pretty spectacular dogs. Too bad they are not being bred often enough. I would love to have a pup out of a MNH x MNH breeding. Why don't we see more of these?

Multititled dogs in different venues show extreme intelligence. Very interesting reading on the upcoming puppy pages to see what breeders deem important.
 
#4 ·
For the newbies the popular sire syndrome requires thoughtful application. Right now we have too much Super Tanker, Lean Mac and Grady breedings that in some breeding misapplications have brought us CMN. etc. Now that we have the tools of DNA , micro chipping and genetic tracing we must do better w/a closed registry that amplifys genetic similarities. Study that young healthy male who excels on a % basis as a Derby dog for potential breeding where his "NATURAL" skills are most demonstrable before us humans mess them up.
 
#15 ·
When minor stake qualifications are so easy to obtain, what can we expect. Marking is what judges should be looking for, but don't punish well trained dogs by throwing contradicting water marks that allow cheaters to find success and the honest to get out in the area of the fall with a small hunt and get punished. Clubs need to make sure they aren't just allowing anyone to judge, put high point judges with newbies so they can learn how to setup Marking Tests if thats what they are looking for. A lot of these judges don't know the difference between marks and trained concepts. IMO clubs need to do more research when picking their minor stake judges and allow newbie judges to learn from good high point judges out there. If clubs are having problems finding experience judges, don't wait until the last minute.
 
#6 ·
Basically ... you can, indeed, have too much of a good thing ... There are so many genetic flaws in existence that we cannot expect any dog to be free of ALL of them.
 
#7 ·
Dave/Gerry- Discussion not disagreement with your points. Bad derby judging is poor club selection . Keep a book on the judges. You run under me be prepared for boat marks. Unfortunately usually the newbie judges are doing more derbies than seasoned judges. Read past issues of Retriever Field Trial News where studies as to "what constitutes a mark" reflected wide differences between individuals. Marking is of primary importance!
 
#8 ·
You run under me be prepared for boat marks.
And they are indeed great marks however there are but a few places in the US where you can throw them and not have a bird floating in open water without anything to hide the bird or keep it from floating away with the wind. In my 40+ years in field trials I can count the boat bird marks I have seen on fewer than the fingers of one hand. Most clubs don't even own a boat much less one stable enough to throw a bird from, the realities of field trials often overcome our ideals.
 
#12 ·
I've run boatmarks thrown to islands, back to the shore, and into cover on the opposit side of the boat from a few decoys .... none of which I would have considered appropiate to test pure conceptless Derby marking.

john
 
#13 ·
Gentleman I do not want to stray too far from the thread but I will respond again. I did not invent boat marks. I learned them. Minnesota , Wisconsin and North Dakota are places where you find this w/isolated places along the way. Most of you do not have clubs who own their own land , have clubhouses , barns/equipment to take out to the various stakes. Boats reguire effort ,workers and terrain.
Drifting is prevented by throwing to cover on islands, points etc. I have run junior hunt tests out there where you run a dog out of a beached boat into water. My best participant derbies and I have run a few , were judged by folks who made their FC/AFC dogs and had high standards. You knew what your dog had to do , make it or break it. Once agin read the past issue of Field Trial Retriever News regarding their marking series.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I love a good discussion on "Popular Sire Syndrome".

But, I have to ask if anybody has actually considered exactly how dominant and recessive traits were "fixed" in order to make a Breed, a Breed.

You know, to the point that you can breed any two random dogs within the Registry, and know with almost 100% certainty that ALL of the offspring produced will be affected with, or completely clear of, dozens of specific Autosomal Recessive traits that essentially define the Breed.
 
#17 ·
WBF - You nailed it !! The difference between training concepts and trial placement are two different critters. I still think young males who demonstrate high marking abilities are often overlooked in breeding programs due to the popular sire syndrome. One can't get out of the first series in an Amateur or 100 dog Open if your dog can't mark. Judges who set up cheating tests as marks in derby stakes should not judge or be overruled by a co-judge more knowledgeable.
 
#20 ·
How did boat marks get into a genetics discussion?
 
#23 ·
Clubs need to make sure they aren't just allowing anyone to judge, put high point judges with newbies so they can learn how to setup Marking Tests if thats what they are looking for.

This statement is easier said than done. As the person who gets judges for 2 trials a year, getting minor stakes judges is the hardest thing to do. I try and get the best I can but it does not always work out that way. Ask anyone that gets judges and they will probably say the same thing. Normally people that think it is that easy is some one not doing the leg work to get the judges.

Russell
 
#28 ·
I have only judged five minor stakes, three of them derby. I will tell you, it is VERY difficult to get separation in a field of derby dogs, especially when you are expected to get through 4 series in a day with 35-40 starters, 90% of whom are run by pros. For me it is infinitely easier to set up a qualifying test and although I have not judged an all-age stake, I would venture to guess that it would be MUCH easier for me than judging minor stakes and especially DERBY! At least then you normally have better grounds to work with and if you need to you can throw a test at them that has everything including the kitchen sink in it and not be chastised.
 
#29 ·
Marking/Judging worthwhile topics but belong on another thread for more discussion
 
#31 ·
#33 ·
Her beginning class is very good. I took it last year as a refresher. I'm hoping we have interest to do a lab specific course this year. She has ties to the geneticist that works with the leader dog colony. What they've done health wise is phenomena! They just submitted 400 samples for the ongoing TVD research. Anyway. Worth the money.

We have popular sires on the show side too. And I know the goldens do also. It's very hard to breed around. On either side of the fence. We probably have some traits that are with is for good.

Sue
 
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