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Thread: Can't !

  1. #51
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    The dog is just coming on 2 years old Swampbilly. Just as well, If it was another year older I would be calling Ghostbusters! Not ...RTF ....
    The dog walks perfect on and off lead (with nothing in the mouth) ,,It has also been on shoots -Live game- ,stops to flush and steady to shot and takes direction.Hunts within range of the gun. Picks up game! ..then reverts back to type?.....Walking to heel with something in the gob at this stage would be a 'bridge too far'? (imo) But thanks for the help
    Ive been following this and after your last statement it all makes perfect sense now as to what has happened.But with all due respect you have received some great advice but sensing you really don't want to hear it. Good day.....jim
    Jim Weitzel
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  2. #52
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd6400 View Post
    Ive been following this and after your last statement it all makes perfect sense now as to what has happened.But with all due respect you have received some great advice but sensing you really don't want to hear it. Good day.....jim
    Thanks Jim.
    I have received some fantastic advice! On open forum and through PM .
    Although I train dogs of all breeds in a variety of disciplines ,there is often the time when you come across the situation(s) where , perhaps others can give a helping hand?
    As it is a basic retrieving issue with this dog (irrespective of breed) ,RTF members have been real helpful .
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  3. #53
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
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    Ok then....listen to Blind Ambition said,I said,and swambilly!!!and bruce,Get to work!!!Haaa
    My take is steady to flush at two? Wowww More emphasis was put into that than delivery when it should have been the other wayaround.Bad habits are very hard to fix as you well know if you train for the public.
    You know whats nice about it the first week it can be done at night in the house!!! Those little dogs really enjoy one on one inside. Good luck and keep us informed. Jim
    Last edited by jd6400; 11-07-2013 at 02:15 PM.
    Jim Weitzel
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  4. #54
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd6400 View Post
    Ok then....listen to Blind Ambition said,I said,and swambilly!!!and bruce,Get to work!!!Haaa
    My take is steady to flush at two? Wowww More emphasis was put into that than delivery when it should have been the other wayaround.Bad habits are very hard to fix as you well know if you train for the public.
    You know whats nice about it the first week it can be done at night in the house!!! Those little dogs really enjoy one on one inside. Good luck and keep us informed. Jim
    Thanks Jim. Of course I'll keep you informed.
    This was today! ..after 'Four days in the house' since she got here! .I'm 'backchaining to the hold', that's why I ain't doing no 'walking to heel' ! It can do that, I'm not doing hunting ,because it can do that, I'm not doing stop to flush , because it can do that. I'm just giving praise when it does the things it ''Can't do'' !......I used a chair\/ Hey , that worked!..I used Cheese> Hey that worked!...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NShDA6wxGx8
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  5. #55
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
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    Stay with it my friend!!!!!!!Baby steps!!!!You are earning your money. Jim
    Jim Weitzel
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  6. #56
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd6400 View Post
    Stay with it my friend!!!!!!!Baby steps!!!!You are earning your money. Jim
    At least she doesn't bite anymore
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  7. #57
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    At least she doesn't bite anymore
    Ahhh...the joys of working spaniels....haaa
    Jim Weitzel
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  8. #58
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    There is one wrinkle to the "Fetch" education which I don't hear mentioned much anymore....I believe it was something I saw Jim Dobbs do in a video, it was teach the dog to "release" prior to teaching "hold". I have used it to start FF and as a remedial for any mouth or delivery issues during a competition. I believe it conveys to the dog the concept that its mouth belongs to the trainer( at least in limited circumstances )
    Standard disclaimer: I train my own dogs and they live in house with us; trust, confidence and loving bond between me and them is a certainty and not in question.

    Calmly and without any command being given secure dog by collar with one hand (or secure to post),
    Place other hand in dogs mouth, use a thick glove with a young dog or client's dog,
    Say nothing, maintain enough grip on dog's lower jaw to keep hand in dog's mouth, if you loose your grip don't get angry/panic and don't speak, just regain your grip. Note: you are not interested in causing pain, this is not to be construed as "Force" or an aversive, it is just you letting the dog know its mouth belongs to you,
    You may remove your hand once the dog stops struggling but watch for this sign from them first: The dog will stop struggling and a moment or so later it will give a sigh or two...that is your clue that this session is over
    If, as you relax your thumb in preparation to removing your hand the dog squirms or clenches begin over again....wordlessly
    OK this time you are lucky and dog accepts your hand, as you prepare to remove it, give the first and only command this session....your word for DROP/OUT or WHY
    The dog is learning that there is a word/command to let it know when to let something out of its mouth and that word comes from its trainer/owner etc.

    If I am beginning FF with my pup I will do this a few more times, not to make it perfect and glitch free but just enough to see substantial improvement in dog's acceptance of my control of its mouth. Once I am satisfied I go on to teach "Hold" then go onto the fetch with as little force via ear pinch as necessary. If you find some success with your little hard head, you might stay on this lesson longer to seek perfection and you might also wish to use it to begin each session of your "Fully educated, conditioned retrieve and delivery exercises"
    power without lumber, raciness without weediness

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  9. #59
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Can't use CC
    Can't use FF
    Can't use Clicker
    Can't use Treats/Food

    Dog is a keen retriever but drops around the 2 yard spot!
    When sent out at 2 yards,It still drops it then comes back in!
    Force hold is out!!

    The dog has been to two separate trainers and is wise to the above, but will still pick up the bumper/or game ,but drops at the 2 yard spot.
    It is not food orientated ,after three days of nothing (refusing the grub- not withholding it) and looks at treats as 'no value'!

    Any advice from across the water?......



    Just saw this thread after some time with deer and ducks and intrigued by the problem and the responses. I sped though them so may have missed all suggestions and subtleties.



    However,most seem to addressing the problem very directly rather than indirectly by breaking down the issues.


    This problem can be “fixed” if you can get the dog to hold and you can get the dog to stop and sit remotely from you as separate behaviours. So tackle the remote sit first and forget the hold for now. The discipline of this will help immeasurably.



    Using an outstretched hand, a command sit, a whistle sit, TEACH this dog to sit when NOT at your side. Meanwhile also practice a sit, walk away and then a call to here. PRAISE!!!


    Put the two together and be able to stop the dog 5 feet away and then walk up and PRAISE.
    Now tackle the hold using the most friendly, easy to carry object possible-perhaps a fuzzy paint roller-You got such things in Scotland? This will be a bribe job not a force job. Firm but praise with ANY effort-even 2 seconds. Make it a game-do not demand but seek mini progress. Try very hard to get the hold and be able to step away and then rush in and praise. Treat like a puppy and when you fail just positively re-do barely showing displeasure.


    Get these two skills developed separately. Sounds like this will take weeks. Forget the $$ and time and think of the challenge. Only when you can get a remote sit on a return with no bumper/item and only when you can get a hold for 30 seconds and the ability to walk around while the dog holds, dare you combine.


    If you get to this stage then for many retrieves you will stop the dog remotely, walk up and then take the bird. It will be a long time before you get delivery to hand as you gradually lessen the gap.


    This can be done- can you be that patient and that much of a teacher? If you can’t I would truly understand and accept that it isn’t worth the effort.

    But I wouldn’t accept the CAN’T part!!!
    Dennis

  10. #60
    Senior Member PalouseDogs's Avatar
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    Have you had a chance to watch the dog with the owner? Have you had the owner show you what he/she has done when teaching the dog?

    My guess is that something caused the behavior to start and, if you don't know what caused it, and the owner keeps doing whatever caused it, any fix will break down when the dog goes back home. Maybe the dog was mouthing birds and got punished when it got close enough for the owner to grab it. Maybe the dog likes snatching things (slippers, gloves) and the owner is all "Here, puppy, puppy, good dog, bring it here" until the dog gets close and then it's "Bad Dog!" Or maybe it was as simple as confusing application of force and/or praise during training.

    A couple of weeks ago, I was helping a friend get started on teaching her sheltie to hold a dumbbell. This person didn't want to use an ear pinch, but couldn't get the dog to stop spitting out the dumbbell. I had her show me what she was doing. She would pry the dog's mouth open (gently), insert dumbbell, hold the dog's mouth shut, saying sternly "HOLD!" with a frown, count a few seconds, say "Give" in a sweet voice, then praise extravagantly. I got her to praise extravagantly, with a smile, while the dog had the dumbbell in its mouth, and to keep any praise for "Give" very low key. (a brief Good). It's very confusing for the dog if the owner looks mad when the dog is holding the dumbbell and sounds ecstatic when the dog gives it up, but I see a lot of first-time OB trainers do it. With a few reps of getting the owner to change the timing of her praise, the sheltie was holding the dumbbell, and even hesitated a little to release it on "Give".

    The owner of this dog might have been getting more and more stern, angry, and loud with his "HOLD' commands as the dog got worse, leading to a vicious cycle of the dog not wanting to be anywhere near the owner while it was holding something.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by PalouseDogs; 11-07-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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