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Thread: Pup "Hates" T-Work ! Loves Pattern Blinds ?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mac Lassiter's Avatar
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    Default Pup "Hates" T-Work ! Loves Pattern Blinds ?

    My 11 month old female seems to absoulutley "HATE" T-Work ! But Seems to love pattern blinds if that makes sense ??

    I am having a terrible time with her drive to the back pile of my T work field, she has not gave me a no-go, but she is one gear above walking to the pile. She is bugging at longer distances (50 yards plus) I have forced to pile, walking fetch and the whole forcing thing went great, But the more time I spend on the T the worse she is getting !


    I had my brother the last 3 days walk out and place a bird at a determined location without her seeing, lined her up, gave her a dead bird and she perked up ! Gave her a back and she took a great line with good drive.
    Had to whistle stop her, and give her a over cast and she nailed it !

    Same thing the last 2 times we have done this ! She shows awesome drive and momentum when we run this, I took her today set the same blind up we did the 1 st day, and she remembered it and lined it !

    There is things I think she still needs to work on with T-work, like her overs, and whistle sits need to be faster and straighter, but I cant seem to get her momentum and addtitude right in T-Work, seems the more I do T work the more she shuts down ?


    Any advice ?
    "MAC"
    SHR Mac's Scars To Prove It (Josie)

  2. #2
    Senior Member BJGatley's Avatar
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    Drills are boring, but need to be done to have a finish Lab. They can spoil a dog. Most folks don't stay to long on T work. Suggestion: Balance....Do marks first then drills, but be careful not to do to much on drills. Always try and end on a happy note, Like a simple mark at the end and praise.

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    How long have you been on the T?

    maybe this post will help shed some light on your problem. http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...l=1#post862012
    Last edited by logy; 11-06-2013 at 10:50 PM.

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    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logy View Post
    How long have you been on the T?

    maybe this post will help shed some light on your problem. http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...l=1#post862012

    Thanks for posting that link.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
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    Mick - Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash***
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    Peerless - Moneybird's Sole Survivor
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    Senior Member Mac Lassiter's Avatar
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    Including Mini-T and now to Double T we are going on right at 3 1/2 to 4 weeks on T work. She seems to do fine and has basic understanding of T work, BUT she is losing momentum and drive really bad. I am keeping a balance and giving her marks everyday, working in birds a few days a week. I have to be careful with birds cause she loses so much intrest in bumpers after birds it takes a day to get her fired up about bumpers again. Everything is ok on work out to 50 yards and then she breaks down. She acts confused BUT I can send her to pile on T field at 100 yards on her very first send everyday and she has great momentum, but after that first send she loses her drive to pile, and starts bugging. I can heel her walk up 10 yards and her momentum picks back up!

    If I try to make momentum by forceing with a Back "nick" Back, she will POP on me and I have figured out I think she is mistaken the "nick" for a remote sit , cause as soon as I nick her she sits everytime !


    I am getting really confused on what to do ! I have tried to place a white bucket at the back pile to build her confidence to the back pile, BUT I know that she knows were that pile is, she just seemes so bored and uninterested in T work
    "MAC"
    SHR Mac's Scars To Prove It (Josie)

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    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Seems like you've been on it for quite a while. The thing that concerns me is I wonder how well this dog has been forced. How good was force-fetch, walking fetch, and force to pile. One thing about doing basics on young dogs. You collar condition on sit, here, and then on go. Three completely different actions. I think they can get confused. Especially if each thing isn't solid before moving on. You can get into a situation of correcting for here, correcting for a sloppy sit, then trying to force on back. And then the dog sits. I don't know what program you're using or what your experience level is. Sometimes it helps to spend some time with someone who is familiar with the program you're using and has dogs that you would consider well trained.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
    (Esprit's Power Play x Trumarc's Lean Cuisine)
    Mick - Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash***
    (Clubmead's Road Warrior x Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog)
    Peerless - Moneybird's Sole Survivor
    (Two River's Lucky Willie x Moneybird's Black Magic Marker)

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    How about a bit of fun - amazing how this can improve attitude to drills. She is only 11 months.
    If you play their game train the way they train

  8. #8
    Junior Member Chaney S K's Avatar
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    Maybe I missed it but why are you still on the T if she's going on back sitting on the whistle and taking the casts? Sounds likes she's bored. Dogs learn to run blinds by running blinds not by running the T. Hard to say for sure without seeing first hand but if she's showing good drive on the pattern field and not getting into trouble then I wouldn't be going back to the T. Just my .02.

    Scott

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipinnpitchin View Post
    Including Mini-T and now to Double T we are going on right at 3 1/2 to 4 weeks on T work. She seems to do fine and has basic understanding of T work, BUT she is losing momentum and drive really bad.
    It appears that you have several issues to deal with before moving on. You've spent ample time on T work. But "time" isn't what trains dogs. It's a process, and something is missing in this dog's training process, as I'll point out. Before doing that, I have to ask a couple questions about the trainer. What are your goals for T work? What are you hoping to get out of it? Also, you appear to be mixing terms; 'momentum' and perhaps 'style' or speed/enthusiasm.
    Quote Originally Posted by flipinnpitchin View Post
    I am keeping a balance and giving her marks everyday, working in birds a few days a week. I have to be careful with birds cause she loses so much interest in bumpers after birds it takes a day to get her fired up about bumpers again.
    Red flag #1. It's natural for a good retriever to prefer birds to bumpers. But if it's to the point of becoming a problem I'm suspect of the depth of your force work.
    Quote Originally Posted by flipinnpitchin View Post
    Everything is ok on work out to 50 yards and then she breaks down. She acts confused BUT I can send her to pile on T field at 100 yards on her very first send everyday and she has great momentum (style?), but after that first send she loses her drive to pile, and starts bugging. I can heel her walk up 10 yards and her momentum picks back up!
    Okay, if she's bugged, what is she bugged about? If nothing, why do you think it's bugging? Again, I'm suspect of the force work due to this inconsistency in overall attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by flipinnpitchin View Post
    If I try to make momentum by forceing with a Back "nick" Back, she will POP on me and I have figured out I think she is mistaken the "nick" for a remote sit , cause as soon as I nick her she sits everytime !
    Bigger red flag! Are you trying to create momentum...make her go when she has refused to? Or are you trying to create style...to make her go faster? Let me save you some time. You can't force style. You can force a dog and speed them up momentarily. But that's not style; it's avoidance, and it will ultimately go backwards on you - dragging down her attitude because it creates negative expectations of drill and fieldwork. Please don't side step any of these issues. Think each one through and assess it.
    Quote Originally Posted by flipinnpitchin View Post
    I am getting really confused on what to do ! I have tried to place a white bucket at the back pile to build her confidence to the back pile, BUT I know that she knows were that pile is, she just seemes so bored and uninterested in T work
    A major part of your dog's confusion and inconsistency stems from your own. You appear to be at odds with training principles. "Do I force: train her to 'go from', or do I entice: (using patterns to lure her to run toward something, including white objects)? They are different process with different outcomes. What program are you following? Are you satisfied that you have studied it thoroughly and understand it?

    Evan
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Mac Lassiter's Avatar
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    Evan I am following your program, Force work went well so I thought ? She had great drive to pile during force to pile, and Mini T, Then when we started expanding the distance that when things started getting bad.


    I can move up and shes fine, I think alot is her confidence, But I can go to a diffrent location and she has great momentum the very first time she runs a pattern blind. I can handle her to the blind with very few casting problems, she picks up the blind. then I can go do several marks, replant he pattern blind, line her up and she will line it. She's very smart ! But her tranier/handler is dumb !


    This is not my first dog to train, BUT is the first to ever follow a program on ! I am getting worried now cause everything went well all along up until T-Work, and she's breaking down. She has this attitude like it is killing her to do the T-Work!


    I know we have spent plenty of time on T, and I am sure she is bored (I am Too) but I won't her to get everything she needs to come away with in training from the T work. And now I am worried about how swim by is going to go due to her attitude towards the drill work ?

    I am at a spot I am afraid to go any further or do anything cause I don't want to dig myself a hole, Do I need to review Force to Pile ? You say it's aproblem with her liking the ducks way more than the bumpers, and that's a force fetch problem ? What is my best soulution at this point ?


    She's crazy about birds, crazy about marks with bumpers, but is bored or has bad attiude towards bumpers during drill work but will always fetch them ! She's marks well in light cover out to 100 yards, is doing simple doubles now, does her handling with 90 % accuracy, and is high driven on pattern blinds ! She just hates T work !


    What do I need to do ? Do I start over and go back to force to pile ? and review ?
    "MAC"
    SHR Mac's Scars To Prove It (Josie)

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