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Thread: Gun buying conundrum

  1. #61
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    I answered a question with a question...lol.

    I wouldn't use steel in an older Modified barrel because it will strain the barrel, it wasn't designed to throw steel . I would use a softer non-tox.

    Let me ask you: Would you run steel through an older 870 with a full choke?
    NO! But many full choked guns have "ring Bulge" that happened by either shooting a steady diet of Larger LEAD buckshot or steel bird shot through them. Barrel is perfectly fine ....

    I wouldnt hesitate one moment to shoot steel through a modern (Post 1909) barrel AS LONG AS,, The choke is more open than full, and Gun is confirmed to be in relativly good shape.

    The standard 12 guage load back in 1909 was a 3 3/4 dram load shooting 1 1/4 ounce of shot.. That hasnt changed at all...

    so,, what needs to be considered is the PRESSURE that the FASTER velocity steel loads develop.

    It really isnt the steel "SHOT" but rather the pressure increase needed to increase the velocity so that steel load performs well...

    Even taking THAT into consideration,, It really only applies with older guns that have double barrels, or guns that rely on Gas or Pressure to operate their actions... Many older SXS's and OU's the barrels are only soft soldered together. the semi autos were designed for that 3 3/4 dram load, so it will operate and not damage the actions parts.. the Modern steel loads,,like I said have increased pressure and velocities for the steel to function efficiently..

    A gun like a wingmaster, with single barrel, in good shape, whos action just carries 1 round into the chamber and fires the shot through a tube that meets standards,, and has a choke more open than Full,, is perfectly safe,, and the steel shot WONT damage the barrel.

    Just look at the FPS of a modern steel load compared to a lead load... the steel may travel as fast as 1550 fps,compared to a lead load that travels at around 1200.. The pressure increase is significant,, but its NOT the steel SHOT that MAY do the damage.

    I have 2 older 870 wingmasters ,,both in 12 guage,, I also have a 1950 ish Winchester Model 12,,that have shot 100's of steel load through them.. One is a fixed choke modified barrel,, the other 2 have screw ins... There is NO,,,, NONE,,, evidence of barrel scoring from the steel shot......NONE! All those guns have confirmed 2 3/4 inch chambers.. something else to consider on older vintage guns..


    If you look at the companies that sell "special" lead ammo for vintage guns,, they reduce the PRESSURES of those lead loads so as not to Damage some of the very early vintage guns.. They arnt concerned of safty of the loadbecause the older guns still met pressure requirements of the day... what they are concerned about is the age and the possibilty of soft solder used in many of the older SXS double barreled guns.

    Also, the OLD WIFES TALE of a Damascus barreled gun being unsafe to shoot with modern smokeless powder is also crazy.Many people have been told not to shoot those fine old guns, but to just relegate then to hang on the wall.. If the gun is in good condition,, those are very fine guns are a joy to carry in the field, decked out with those cool looking exposed hammers,and beautifully patterened twist steel barrels. Ya just gotta do the home work,and load your own lead ammo for it, to keep the pressures safe..
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
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  2. #62
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    I answered a question with a question...lol.

    I wouldn't use steel in an older Modified barrel because it will strain the barrel, it wasn't designed to throw steel . I would use a softer non-tox.

    Let me ask you: Would you run steel through an older 870 with a full choke?
    The steel in the older 870s is just as strong as new ones. I wouldn't shoot steel out of any full choke barrel, new or old from any manufacture. The issue is the steel can't compress the way softer metals can, so it's the too restrictive full choke that is the issue. Regarding the strength of steel, the plastic shot cup protects the barrel lining from the harder steel shot.

    My hunting buddy and I duck hunt with the occasional stray goose three days a week. Neil alternates between three guns, his late 60's vintage Winchester Model 1200 with the original 12 ga. 28" modified barrel, his Uncle Jim's 40's vintage Win Model 12 that he had opened up from full to modified and his Dad's 20 ga. Browning Citori. His, and my gunsmith said there would be no problem doing this and so far he is right.

    John

    Oops, while I was writing this Gooser was writing a much better explanation, that's ok, he's a very knowledgeable gunsmith, so I would expect a better explanation.
    Last edited by John Robinson; 11-11-2013 at 09:54 AM.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    only on the RTF can a simple Q: on buying a gun turn into a three page event
    true,
    but it turned into a good one.
    I love it when actual factual and anecdotal get a chance to chat about things.
    it's like the ol' schoolhouse rock songs of our yout.
    folks don't even know they are learning!!
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  4. #64
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddogs View Post
    Not Gooser but I will answer for myself: No. But I wouldn't shoot steel thru ANY full choke, never recomended, newer or older shotgun and if you do you are asking for trouble. Looking at my invector + tube right now and in nice clear lettering it says" LEAD ONLY"

    Seems like you are trying to justify an inaccurate belief that an older shotgun cannot accept steel shot by changing the specs on the gun in question.

    Mod can handle it, but IC will pattern better. Since IC is not a choice, go with the gun that fits.
    Whoa. First - 'Changing the specs?" THAT sounds like argument justification. Was the OP going to 'modify the specs'? Hell - at this point we don't even know what the 870 is. Last I heard.

    My 85 Citori full invector tubes say 'Steel Shot". I'm comfortable with that. But then again - ain't that the whole point, barrel constriction on steel versus lead?

    I never stated the gun would blow-up if running steel through the gun. But I've seen barrel bulge and the ring. Moreover nobody has mentioned that anything larger than #2 steel creates a larger issue. Ya'll gonna get a disclaimer if OP starts running BBB through the gun?

    Everyone can do what they wish. I'll not run steel through an older gun. They weren't made for it, and I'm not looking to create ANY barrel damage, bulge, rings, or anything else. Lots of people still turkey fry on their wood deck.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    Whoa. First - 'Changing the specs?" THAT sounds like argument justification. Was the OP going to 'modify the specs'? Hell - at this point we don't even know what the 870 is. Last I heard.......
    from the original post,
    Come on Man!
    Quote Originally Posted by firehouselabs View Post
    Gun A:
    Older model with the shiny finish and trefoil design, showing some wear, mainly scratches on the receiver but no more than one would expect for a gun that is used. 28" (actually 27 1/2" but I guess they round up?" barrel with ridged rail sight. Barrel is a modified choke and is one of those that you cannot change chokes, so modified it is.!

    I still maintain go with gun A, it fits you and as you have seen you are able to shoot steel through it
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  6. #66
    Senior Member labsforme's Avatar
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    "Gun A: Older model with the shiny finish and trefoil design, showing some wear, mainly scratches on the receiver but no more than one would expect for a gun that is used. 28" (actually 27 1/2" but I guess they round up?" barrel with ridged rail sight. Barrel is a modified choke and is one of those that you cannot change chokes, so modified it is."
    She is looking at a modified barrel with a vent rib.
    I have an 870 from 1972 that has a modified barrel,2 3/4" chamber and have shot at least 500 rounds of BBB with NO,ZIP,NONE bulging or deformation of the barrel!!!! The steel they used in the older Wingmaster 870s is tougher than the Express barrels.
    This is not hearsay like what most of the nay sayers are using.

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  7. #67
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    If I had to choose btw those 2 I'd pick gun A; mainly because it's wood; obviously has had some use and has held up. I prefer an older gun to a new one, they are constructed much better, balanced better, you usually can just feel the difference when you pick them up. The newer 870's kicks-like a mule; are designed for a very long armed, man. So figure at least a extra $100; to get it fitted to you; if it's not fitted to you; might as well throw it under a bus becuz your not gonna hit anything; and it's gonna beat the crap out of you.

    Sure you can get a youth stock; but the odds of that youth stock being correct for you a woman; are not very good either (women are women; not youth boys; If you've ever put on a youths jacket; you'll know that the sleeves are ~ 2-4 inch too short for a woman. The same is true with a youth stock (it's a tad too short, a bit too thick; and your cheek will take a beating from it)

    You can kill plenty of ducks with a modified choke (it's tighter so you got to be a pretty good shot up close, but you can get the long one's), and I've never needed anything more than 2 3/4 shell (light weight) yes Even geese; this is the only thing I shoot, sure you can shoot the 3 or 3 1/2, until they beat you up ( a couple of shots), especially with a pump and you can't hit anything .

    My first gun was a 870 express magnum; it beat the snot out of me for a few years; then I got it fitted to me and it still beat the snot out of me (but I could hit stuff). I eventually "borrowed and never returned" an Older Wingmaster. It was the first gun that wasn't a chore to shoot (it just fit me), it didn't beat me (very refreshing), the gun felt natural in my hand (which doesn't happen often when your a female shooter). Shooting should be fun and not a chore; find a gun that does that, and do not listen to the Guys on what you should have. Guys are guys; Guns are designed to fit them; most of the time they can pick up any gun and make it work. So they really don't know what it is to be battered by a gun; and not be able to hit Sh&t because a gun is not design for you.

    You already said Gun A felt natural in your hand; that doesn't happen often. You'll probably still have to do a bit of fitting; but that is easier when you start off with a gun that feels right. So if those are your choices pick gun A. Of course the absolutely best gun for a woman shooter is a semi-automatic Berreta 491, fitted by someone who knows what they are doing; with a Kick-ez pad, a bit of shiny scroll-work on the side, and a dark walnut stock (are a nice touch) .
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 11-11-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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  8. #68
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    The 870 "Express" is the exact same gun as the wingmaster as far specifications go. The steel is the same.

    The difference is the the amount of finish or polish the barrel and action reciieve. they didnt polish these guns for two reasons.
    1. to keep the cost dowm
    2..to dull the shiny glaring barrel that hunters complained about.

    Also,, the wood used for the stock and forarm with the express is not Walnut. This again was done to reduce cost, and make the gun a utility verson of the more refined "wingmster"

    The steel used, the size and manufacturing tolersnces used are the same from gun to gun. Parts pretty much interchange (Most of the time)

    You can take a "Express" polish the barrel, polish the reciever, stone and polish the working action, then re -blue with a quality blueing job,, then purchase a walnut checkered stock,, and you have the "Wingmast" its all cosmetic.

    If those,, that have Expresses, would take the time to stone and polish the rubbing parts of the action,, you would be amazed at how much more smooth the action becomes..

    The reason the expresses seem to rust easier, is because of the unrefined finish the barrel and reciever has.its really rough! It will hold moisture easily. Its very important on these finishes to keep them well protected on the metal surfaces...

    Now,, that being said,, the WORKMANSHIP of newer Remington products has really gone downhill as well the QUALITY CONTROL.

    I have a 870 that remington call a "sportsman" its a unpolished barrel, and reciever, and cheap wood. That gun, has seen an incredible amount of use, it has NEVER failed. Its the gun that goes with me on trips,, and if the weather turns really fowl,, the "Other" guns stay in the truck,, and the workhorse comes out...

    I am luck in the fact, I fit the "typical size" that manufactures use to make the standard gun. so, for the most part,, I can pick up about any gun,, and shoot it relatively well..

    If you is a freak of nature, for exaample,,, your knuckles drag the ground when you walk,, or you have those wonderful bumps in strategic places;0;0,, then SOME adjustments MAY be needed to help you shoot a BIT better.... It wont however become a magic wand,, unless you get out and practice with it...
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  9. #69
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/journals/870


    Enjoy!!!!


    More than you will ever want to know about the Remington 870 shotgun

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  10. #70
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    What I find amusing ,, is you see these fine older 870's for sale,, and sometimes you just take one look at them, and can easily see the gun has been treated without respect. they will be dirty,, rusted outside and down the bore of the barrel,,,, action full of fine sand from the river bottom. evidence of salt water conditions,, stocks cut,,, fixed chokes modified and opened up,, and yet the owners will say they want to sell it cause they need a gun that can shoot steel shot!

    They dont want to score the bore of the barrel!

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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