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Anyone had success with this issue?

5K views 23 replies 11 participants last post by  DarrinGreene 
#1 ·
Friend's dog:

Dog yelps during a cast in a water blind. Sometimes, but rarely during cast in a land blind.

Dog is about 5 yrs, has 2 Master passes, several Qual Jams and an SH title.

How do you communicate to the dog not to vocalize in mid cast??? How does dog know if you're unhappy with the cast or unhappy with the sound???

Dog takes wonderful casts and carries them on land and in water.

Has anyone had this particular issue and any success with it.

Owner said dog has always done this, but it has not presented a real problem until now. Most judges haven't had a problem with it, but this weekend, he was failed in a Master test in the water blind because of it.


Thanks,
Jennifer
 
#2 ·
They failed the dog on a yelp during the cast??? I'd like to know from the judges what they had a problem with, unless that was just icing on the cake to fail from other work issues that day. Either one big thing or several small things can get you on a given day.
 
#3 ·
That is usually a result of expecting pressure with the cast in training. It's kind of an anxiety thing with a dog trying hard to please. Like Kendall I'm kind of surprised he was dropped for it, unless it was loud, obnoxious and repetitive.

Does this dog give many cast refusals in and around water? If not I'd back off on collar corrections in and around the water, let the dog relax a bit and it should go away.

edit: I just read that the dog has always done this, in that case I don't what to do except not run under those judges again.
 
#4 ·
It's a tough one, for sure. Definitely sounds like an anxiety issue regarding water blinds, but not from collar pressure, as he hasn't used one. He said he has used call ins, but quickly realized that wasn't going to work. The owner says the dog takes every cast and carries it, just lets out a yelp as he takes off on the cast.

At 5 yrs old with that many trials and tests under his belt, I'm not sure there's much to do... But if anyone has dealt with this with success, it would be very helpful to hear!
 
#5 ·
is it a golden? I know of a golden bitch that does this also , I guided the owner through basics and the bitch titled MH at 3+ yrs without ever having failed a test at all three levels, also got a QAA jam. The owner is NOT collar happy and neither am I . The bitch only does it on water blinds. She IS a high rolling dog and it is like she is frustrated at being stopped and not able to get there fast enough.
 
#15 ·
The dog you're talking about barks obnoxiously on water blinds and she'll do it in a land (drill) scenario also. I proved it, and I proved the cause, which is frustration.

I also proved to the owner how to fix it, on land at least. She never carried what we talked about over to the water so I'm sure the dog is still giving her the middle paw on every water blind.

You're right though, as long as judges allow this kind of behavior in a MH level dog it's really no big deal. Gracie has 5 straight passes and she BARKS...

It's way beyond a little yip on a cast. She's a nice dog. It's a shame the behavior never got addressed in basics, like it should have.
 
#18 ·
She stopped coming up here immediately after swim by so I am not sure when it started, and the last time I trained with her (prob 2 yrs ago) it was just a few barks on the whistle in the water. SO what was your advice to her?
 
#22 · (Edited)
She stopped coming up here immediately after swim by so I am not sure when it started, and the last time I trained with her (prob 2 yrs ago) it was just a few barks on the whistle in the water. SO what was your advice to her?
My advice to her was to reward desirable behavior and punish undesirable behavior, although, if she gave me the dog we would go all the way back to formal obedience and start from there, addressing the frustration as we went along. The dog needs to learn a new sit standard.

Given where she is and the fact that there's no way she's taking the dog off the test/trial circuit for the 6 mos - 1 year I think it would take to extinct the behavior, the band-aid would be to set her up to both fail and succeed, and teach her the difference in a meaningful way.

Unfortunately the owner has been rewarded for inappropriate behavior on the part of the dog and has developed a set of training habits that will plague every dog she owns henceforth.

If she ever gets a real high roller with some actual bottom on her hands, she's going to be in deep deep trouble and I really feel for the poor dog who, despite getting the very best home with the most love it could ever get from a human being, will be nagged to death until the day it dies.

LOVE this person. Really do. She has a lot of knowledge and experience, and has done very well with her dogs. She really ought to try +r only. I think she'd do well and be happy with that strategy. I really think she would do great if she put her e-collar down and used the patience and love she has to train a dog the way she really wants to.
 
#10 ·
Nope , she just leaves her alone. I THINK that her doing agility with the dog plays into it. I am pretty sure she is a barker in agility
 
#11 ·
I had same problem on young dog I have now. My issue started on land blind first leaving line yelping an then she did same thing on water. Only on water it got worse as in vocal the whole time she was swim. I attribute it to pressure on back with burn till going from line an on both land and water blind training. An she did it with over and back cast on sit. She got to were she made sound with no pressure with collar so I knew I had to fix the issue. I think it got worse on water cause she's a barn burner an the water slowing her down. Now first thing first I taught quiet command when she was a pup an would bark in crate which I open crate an gripped her snout an command quiet. I teach all my dogs that. An on command they stop. They might make a muffle growl but they are quiet on command. Now what I did to fix the issue ( did this first on land to get her to understand the correction an then did on water later) was put dog on long lead an as soon as she made sound leaving the line I stopped her with lead walk out to her (which wasn't but a few steps) with NO commands at this point an gripped her snout an commanded quiet and took her to truck an put her in box with an gripped on snout with quiet command again. An repeated it time an time again. Did same thing with her sitting frontal to fix over casts and back casts. Didn't take long on overs and backs cause she knew from back casts from line. Then went to water an did same thing with only change was on over casts and back casts I stopped her short from bank so I could pull her to me with lead if water was deep. As I was pulling her in if I had to was I commanded quiet an she knew at that point her snout was going to get pinch down on. I did take her to truck an put her in box with grip snout an quiet command as I did on land on water training. After many training sessions of that she stopped yelping or barking on any cast I gave her. Oh I left out when I started this training. I put a shackle bird at the blind an let her have it on first back from line so that her drive to get bird would amp her up. So when she went to dog box an not get the reward of live bird as we do on all other training I think was the icing on the cake. Did same on other cast training. I know this was a long reply an I'm sorry for that but it was only way I could explain it. Hope this will help.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Thank you for the input!

Bridget, I do think this is a similar situation to your friend's. Excitement + anticipation barking. I thought perhaps if he taught the dog to "speak", he could then add the word "Quiet" teaching the dog to turn on and turn off the noise with a specific word, then when the noise starts during the cast, he could say "quiet". I don't know...
 
#13 ·
Your welcome.
Jennifer just make sure that there's no pressure with collar when he is giving quiet command like your talking about as it might just magnify the issue. I think collar could be added later to enforce the command. Just go easy with it.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I think You need to look at a situation like this and ask yourself? Was the episode really that big of an issue or perhaps were you just running under some judges that don't agree with your particular style of dog. A lot of people get to Master tests; and start to focus their training on little inconsistencies that a particular set of judges had a issue with on a particular day. It drives them and their dogs nuts; when they should be focusing on balanced and solid training. It's a hard pill to swallow, but judges are people; and sometimes the easiest thing; is to realize certain people will never like certain dogs; and they're going to penalize you for certain pet-peeves regardless. So it would be just easier not run under that judge again. Now if vocalization is truly an issue; yes it should be addressed; I've seen trainers nick "and say quite" when a dog is continuously noisy; or run said dog with a bark-collar (on land)until he learn to maintain silence. Still honestly a single bark on a cast; doesn't appear to be a big deal (I wasn't there so I don't know); but unless it was very repetitive and very annoying; I might be opening my little black book on a couple of judges; and continuing with my training as if that particular test never happened ;)
 
#21 ·
Jennifer I was explain my training the other day with quiet command. I have never had to tell her quiet once I got her to understand that being vocal was not acceptable. That was what I was trying to explain to teach the dog. I have had to give quiet command while getting ready to honor but that's it. So with others say say quiet while dog is running test is not what I was explain to do. Just teach it being vocal is not acceptable. A pro friend of mine taught me to do it that way.
 
#23 ·
So what was your advice for punishment?
I am pretty sure you know, working with a person 1 or 2 times a month, you cannot ever know what goes on at home , nor control it and can only deal with the dog you see on the day. My standard for my dogs is pretty high, the standard other people allow, I can only comment on and hope they see the light.
Other than the noise , I don't know how bad the dog can be if she has not EVER failed a test through MH, QAA, BUt I have not seen her run. I did see her in passing one day as I was going to SH and saw that she had some pretty happy feet on the line.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Punishment would start with denying the retrieve and ramp up from there until I found a level of aversiveness that got the point across. She had already attempted a short call in (denial) but I think it could be taken much further and that the therapy should start on land, not in the water.

I showed the effectiveness of the strategy with a simple push pull drill on land. Two bumpers, 45 deg separated, 10 yards distance. Push/pull/push/pull... didn't take many reps for her to get frustrated and start barking. Sit NICK (on a very low number based on her reaction), Push or pull and she'll be quiet on the next repetition. Send the dog. Take bumper and replace bumper, start again. Mix up success and failure. Send on the second push/pull (before she barks) sometimes, do 3-5 on others, 8-10 on others, until she is either completely silent or makes noise. You could make up any number of drills that deny the dog immediate gratification and work with the resulting frustration. Switching to birds probably ups the ante, so I would do that at some point. Then go to a swim-by type pond and try to transfer the learning. Final step, all throughout her life, you have to get rid of frustration based barking, from the agility ring to the kitchen.

This is just my opinion based on how dogs learn from the consequences of their actions (good or bad). I never did get to see it through and fix the problem. Randy or someone else may have a different approach and say mine is bullshirt but it's pretty straightforward and logical.

First things first though, she has to recognize the fact that the dog is running her vs. the other way around and get rid of the emotional baggage that's stopping her from making appropriate corrections.

She would use her collar a lot less if she used it infrequently, but in a meaningful manner.

In the meantime judges keep rewarding the dog, and thus the handler, so I wouldn't expect to see any change, nor would I change personally, if I were in the same position.
 
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