The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 24

Thread: Primers in manual winger releases legal at HT?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,019

    Default Primers in manual winger releases legal at HT?

    This is what I found in the rules. It says break open shot guns are "recommended" and 20 ga and 12 ga "should" be used. What do you guys think/know about this? I have heard of a club that went to using wingeers with primers but some people in our club want to be sure it is legal incase we decide to do this.


    Section 8. Gunning. Shooting, whether live or blank ammunition is used, shall be done only by official Guns approved and designated by the Hunting Test Committee.
    Handlers while running their dogs, and Judges while
    acting in their official capacities judging dogs, shall not fire guns with live or blank ammunition.
    It is recommended that all gunning be accomplished
    with breaking type shotguns, and that the guns be broken
    (or cased) when not in use. Host clubs must be aware of
    government regulations on the type of shot allowed at the
    test location. It is recommended that gunners wear ear and
    eye protecting devices.
    Only 20 gauge to 12 gauge shotguns should be used.
    Gunners firing live ammunition must be 21 years of age or
    older. Gunners firing popper loads must be a minimum of
    16 years of age and if less than 21, must have successfully
    completed a Hunter/Gun Safety course.
    Shouldering the Gun In Senior and Master Tests,

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    922

    Default

    Although it say it is recommended, it does not say required. We are getting ready to discuss the same topic, but for purchase of thunder launchers.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Codatango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    220

    Default

    What I 'remember' reading is that you cannot use remote control devices or electronics to activate wingers. And "kick-type" wingers are all that is allowed. To me, that says that any Zinger Winger type and even pulling a rope is not allowed. It's a safety issue.

    Debbie

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Faunsdale, Ala
    Posts
    594

    Default

    My view point :
    I believe the akc ht book says "an attention getting or noise making device"

    Most clubs use manual wingers because the bird throwers can't get it far enough
    I dont believe i have ever seen primers used in the wingers at an akc ht. wingers with electronics are used in most ckc ht

    With regard to the thunder& sticks; many clubs are going to them because of safety and expense plus just getting a 12 ga blank is difficult. The cost per shot - thunderstick less than a penny, blanks are anywhere from 8 to 12 a box meaning .32 to .40 a shot. Makes no birds start to get expensive

    Thoughts all
    Dk

  5. #5
    Senior Member Brad B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Winnie, TX
    Posts
    1,702

    Default

    Looks like a lot of "recomendations" to me, and the way I read it they are referring to the actual gunners' guns being used. Our club has been using primers in the wingers for a while now and have suffered no reprimands. We still stock and make available to judges, the option of using a 12 ga. popper in case of strong winds or something where the primer couldn't be heard.

    I also don't think using a pull cord is considered a "remote" release.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    922

    Default

    I have judged an event where the wingers that were used were Kick Start. But, they also had a primer in them, so when kicked, the shot was fired. They actually were the Train-Rite Wingers, with the kick start (Manual, not electronic).

    I had no problem with them as a judge, as they did their job.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Elverson, PA
    Posts
    2,436

    Default

    I guess for HT it doesn't matter because distance is rather short but, with a winger and primer load the bird is long gone through it's arc before shot is heard at the line.
    Normally, with a winger and bird boy with popper gun, the popper is shot first then the bird is launched. Shot is normally heard before bird reaches top of arc.
    "Darla" AFC Candlewoods Lil Smokin Tequila (2002-2013)(fondly remembered)
    "Smoke" Smokin Auggies Menace, QAA (2003- )(retired nut case, ask Rando)
    "Simba" Humewood Simba (1999-2014)(my 1st dog)

    .
    Per favore, non mi rompere i coglioni.
    Grazie




  8. #8
    Senior Member Elliott Labradors's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    The Great State of South Carolina
    Posts
    311

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Breck View Post
    I guess for HT it doesn't matter because distance is rather short but, with a winger and primer load the bird is long gone through it's arc before shot is heard at the line.
    Normally, with a winger and bird boy with popper gun, the popper is shot first then the bird is launched. Shot is normally heard before bird reaches top of arc.
    I agree with Breck when he uses the term "normally" in his winger/bird boy statement. However, since bird boys are human, shot timing may vary. I've seen shots 3 seconds before launch and shots 3 seconds after the bird hit the ground...all in the same series. With the winger/primer you always get a consistent shot in regards to the timing of the shot and launch. Our club uses winger/primers and we always have the judges evaluate the sound effect in set up with current conditions and any anticipated changes such as wind. A popper gun and gun stand is always available.

    Wally
    Elliott's Amazing Grace Of Diamond E MH, CGC
    HRCH Elliott's Rockin' Roxy MH30, CGC
    HR Elliott's Carolina Thorne MH, CGC
    Elliott's Dixie Lou MH, CGC
    Elliott's Carolina Duchess MH, CGC
    Elliott's Armbrook Go Tell It On The Mountain JH (3)
    Elliott's Armbrook Lilly Of The Valley SH
    Elliott's Armbrook Set My Soul Afire SH
    Elliott's Armbrook Living By Faith SH

    www.ElliottLabradors.com

    America would be a different place at sundown if we all started with a devotion at sunup! Wally Elliott

  9. #9
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    2,402

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Breck View Post
    I guess for HT it doesn't matter because distance is rather short but, with a winger and primer load the bird is long gone through it's arc before shot is heard at the line.
    Normally, with a winger and bird boy with popper gun, the popper is shot first then the bird is launched. Shot is normally heard before bird reaches top of arc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Labradors View Post
    I agree with Breck when he uses the term "normally" in his winger/bird boy statement. However, since bird boys are human, shot timing may vary. I've seen shots 3 seconds before launch and shots 3 seconds after the bird hit the ground...all in the same series. With the winger/primer you always get a consistent shot in regards to the timing of the shot and launch. Our club uses winger/primers and we always have the judges evaluate the sound effect in set up with current conditions and any anticipated changes such as wind. A popper gun and gun stand is always available.

    Wally
    This sounds like field trials, not hunt tests. In the AKC field trial the sequence is shoot, then throw. In the AKC hunt tests, the sequence is duck call, throw, shoot.

    (Edit: I can't find this in the rules, but it is the custom at all the events I've been at.)

    The issue to me is the sound. The primers are not very loud.
    Last edited by mitty; 11-13-2013 at 01:41 PM.
    Renee P

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Codatango View Post
    What I 'remember' reading is that you cannot use remote control devices or electronics to activate wingers. And "kick-type" wingers are all that is allowed. To me, that says that any Zinger Winger type and even pulling a rope is not allowed. It's a safety issue.

    Debbie
    I do NOT believe this statement is accurate.........I judged an event where the AKC Rep was present & he even went out into the field to help at that particular station where a remote release & Zinger winger was being used and nothing was ever said to me, my co-Judge or committee.....

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •