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Primers in manual winger releases legal at HT?

5K views 23 replies 19 participants last post by  rookie 
#1 ·
This is what I found in the rules. It says break open shot guns are "recommended" and 20 ga and 12 ga "should" be used. What do you guys think/know about this? I have heard of a club that went to using wingeers with primers but some people in our club want to be sure it is legal incase we decide to do this.


Section 8. Gunning. Shooting, whether live or blank ammunition is used, shall be done only by official Guns approved and designated by the Hunting Test Committee.
Handlers while running their dogs, and Judges while
acting in their official capacities judging dogs, shall not fire guns with live or blank ammunition.
It is recommended that all gunning be accomplished
with breaking type shotguns, and that the guns be broken
(or cased) when not in use. Host clubs must be aware of
government regulations on the type of shot allowed at the
test location. It is recommended that gunners wear ear and
eye protecting devices.
Only 20 gauge to 12 gauge shotguns should be used.
Gunners firing live ammunition must be 21 years of age or
older. Gunners firing popper loads must be a minimum of
16 years of age and if less than 21, must have successfully
completed a Hunter/Gun Safety course.
Shouldering the Gun In Senior and Master Tests,
 
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#3 ·
What I 'remember' reading is that you cannot use remote control devices or electronics to activate wingers. And "kick-type" wingers are all that is allowed. To me, that says that any Zinger Winger type and even pulling a rope is not allowed. It's a safety issue.

Debbie
 
#4 ·
My view point :
I believe the akc ht book says "an attention getting or noise making device"

Most clubs use manual wingers because the bird throwers can't get it far enough
I dont believe i have ever seen primers used in the wingers at an akc ht. wingers with electronics are used in most ckc ht

With regard to the thunder& sticks; many clubs are going to them because of safety and expense plus just getting a 12 ga blank is difficult. The cost per shot - thunderstick less than a penny, blanks are anywhere from 8 to 12 a box meaning .32 to .40 a shot. Makes no birds start to get expensive

Thoughts all
Dk
 
#5 ·
Looks like a lot of "recomendations" to me, and the way I read it they are referring to the actual gunners' guns being used. Our club has been using primers in the wingers for a while now and have suffered no reprimands. We still stock and make available to judges, the option of using a 12 ga. popper in case of strong winds or something where the primer couldn't be heard.

I also don't think using a pull cord is considered a "remote" release.
 
#6 ·
I have judged an event where the wingers that were used were Kick Start. But, they also had a primer in them, so when kicked, the shot was fired. They actually were the Train-Rite Wingers, with the kick start (Manual, not electronic).

I had no problem with them as a judge, as they did their job.
 
#7 ·
I guess for HT it doesn't matter because distance is rather short but, with a winger and primer load the bird is long gone through it's arc before shot is heard at the line.
Normally, with a winger and bird boy with popper gun, the popper is shot first then the bird is launched. Shot is normally heard before bird reaches top of arc.
 
#8 ·
I agree with Breck when he uses the term "normally" in his winger/bird boy statement. However, since bird boys are human, shot timing may vary. I've seen shots 3 seconds before launch and shots 3 seconds after the bird hit the ground...all in the same series. With the winger/primer you always get a consistent shot in regards to the timing of the shot and launch. Our club uses winger/primers and we always have the judges evaluate the sound effect in set up with current conditions and any anticipated changes such as wind. A popper gun and gun stand is always available.

Wally
 
#14 ·
I clarified with an AKC official that they is no problem using primers. Any noise making device may ne used as long as it gets the dogs attention. The exact quote was:

"As long as the "noise" making device accomplishes its purpose (getting the dogs attention) then the mechanism is alright. The 209 primer makes a sufficient noise as long as the distances are not too great or the wind is not out of the wrong direction. There is no Regulation stipulating that shotgun blanks have to be used"

With that said, I have seen several clubs moving to these types of wingers/primers. Our club is looking at them as well.

As for the cadence of the shot/bird in a HT, there is not certain sequence that has to be followed. The purpose of the shot is to get the dogs attention only. As long as it does, and they see the bird, then it has served its purpose. There are judges that like a certain sequence. In those cases, clubs should have shotgun poppers available.
 
#15 ·
I have but one bit of advice to add to this topic. It will be almost impossible to meet every single suggested requirement in a Hunt Test. If we must "fall short" in any given area......I say do not "fall short" on the safety of the kid manning the station for the sake of a poochy lipped handler that doesn't think his dog will be given a fair audible.
Wally
 
#17 ·
I don't worry about the sound of the primer being loud enough. The few field trial pros I have trained with use 209 pistols regularly. The cadence is probably more of an issue. I see lots of dogs miss marks because of the echo of the popper loads. It is easier, cheaper & safer to use 209's or Thunders. What advantage does a regular popper load have?
 
#21 ·
The other issue is that with gun laws becoming very restrictive, using launchers with primers certain lessens the risk to all involved in manning the station. Also our club currently has 8 NE Firearms 12 ga single shot guns. These guns are getting quite old and are having to be repaired frequently. With current guns laws regarding purchasing and liability, none of the club members (including me) want to purchase the guns in our own name and the guns can't be purchased under the club name, so we may soon have no choice.

Dawn
 
#22 ·
What I like about using a primer in a winger is that at 375 yards per second the sound of the shot reaches the dog at test distances at a delay of around a quarter to a third of a second. That's about the time of or just before the apex of the launched bird.

How many times have we been at the line where the winger operator fired the popper after the bird was on the ground.

Using remote releases on the wingers gives the judges better control of the test rather than depending on a distracted or bored operator.

Many of us train with them so the dogs know what to expect anyway.
 
#23 ·
There are alot of opinions here, NONE are right or wrong as it is not specified in the rules. I LIKE primers in our Gunners-UP for safety and cost reasons, BUT ultimately it is up to the judging pair weather or not primers are working for the specific scenario!
 
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