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Thread: To Much Drive?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexGold View Post
    Nothing to add, but I couldn't resist being the 100th post to this interesting thread.
    I wonder what wold happen if I deleted one of my duplicate posts?

  2. #102
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    To me, "Too much drive" generally translates to "Not enough human to handle it".

    And what Pete said.
    I agree with Pete, of course and I think there are two typical situations in retrieverdom where too much desire is a problem.

    First is the person who wants it and can't handle it (too little human).

    Second I think is the person who is capable but doesn't really want it and doesn't enjoy that kind of dog.

    I think it's all related to a person's history with dogs and their goals/objectives.

    Personally I want the highest degree of desire I can lay my hands on, but I need it combined with good intelligence and pack drive, then tempered with a reasonable degree of sensitivity.

    I have one right now that has no idea how to slow down on the first mark of the day and will blow through on the right line and hunt deep pretty much every time. Once that's out of her system, subsequent marks are much better. She doesn't have much experience yet but she has good pack drive and is sensitive but not a pouter. She'll get it down over time and when she does she will turn in a very exciting performance. It's just going to take a little while longer than it might otherwise and I would imagine she will occasionally blow up in a test. That's fine with me as it's my idea of what a retriever should be...

    I'm sure it's not for everyone.
    Darrin Greene

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I agree with Pete, of course and I think there are two typical situations in retrieverdom where too much desire is a problem.

    First is the person who wants it and can't handle it (too little human).

    Second I think is the person who is capable but doesn't really want it and doesn't enjoy that kind of dog.

    I think it's all related to a person's history with dogs and their goals/objectives.

    Personally I want the highest degree of desire I can lay my hands on, but I need it combined with good intelligence and pack drive, then tempered with a reasonable degree of sensitivity.

    I have one right now that has no idea how to slow down on the first mark of the day and will blow through on the right line and hunt deep pretty much every time. Once that's out of her system, subsequent marks are much better. She doesn't have much experience yet but she has good pack drive and is sensitive but not a pouter. She'll get it down over time and when she does she will turn in a very exciting performance. It's just going to take a little while longer than it might otherwise and I would imagine she will occasionally blow up in a test. That's fine with me as it's my idea of what a retriever should be...

    I'm sure it's not for everyone.
    This is probably showing my ignorance. I think I have some idea of what the "pack instinct" is but not sure what you mean by "pack drive", let alone how to recognize it. Could you explain?

  4. #104
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    [QUOTEThis is probably showing my ignorance. I think I have some idea of what the "pack instinct" is but not sure what you mean by "pack drive", let alone how to recognize it. Could you explain?][/QUOTE]
    I will do this in multiple posts because of posts not going through based on time.
    Within a drive there are different manifestations of behaviors. In prey drive you have behavior that causes a dog to reach his goal and satisfy it. Some of the behavior of prey drive are stalking,,freezing (pointing),, herding,,,,giving eye,,, chasing,,,,,shaking prey to dispatch,, quartering,,,, searching,,,, and probably others I have missed. You can see that man has harnessed the desired traits and instilled them in the different breeds.
    This is an illustration that will help you understand pack drive ,,,but i'm out of time now ,more later
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I agree with Pete, of course and I think there are two typical situations in retrieverdom where too much desire is a problem.

    First is the person who wants it and can't handle it (too little human).

    Second I think is the person who is capable but doesn't really want it and doesn't enjoy that kind of dog.

    I think it's all related to a person's history with dogs and their goals/objectives.

    Personally I want the highest degree of desire I can lay my hands on, but I need it combined with good intelligence and pack drive, then tempered with a reasonable degree of sensitivity.

    I have one right now that has no idea how to slow down on the first mark of the day and will blow through on the right line and hunt deep pretty much every time. Once that's out of her system, subsequent marks are much better. She doesn't have much experience yet but she has good pack drive and is sensitive but not a pouter. She'll get it down over time and when she does she will turn in a very exciting performance. It's just going to take a little while longer than it might otherwise and I would imagine she will occasionally blow up in a test. That's fine with me as it's my idea of what a retriever should be...

    I'm sure it's not for everyone.
    Darrin, This is going off on a tangent, I really would like to know how you are handling this type of dog.

    I have had a few, Their drive was high and their lines where vary good, but they would over run their retrieves and hunt deep. I also know that their working attitude was good, so I came to the conclusion that pressure was not need. I would give them a loud HAY, HAY as they ran past the mark. I did this every time for about 2 months. I seem to work well for me. Just wondering how you handled it.

    Thanks Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    [QUOTEThis is probably showing my ignorance. I think I have some idea of what the "pack instinct" is but not sure what you mean by "pack drive", let alone how to recognize it. Could you explain?]
    I will do this in multiple posts because of posts not going through based on time.
    Within a drive there are different manifestations of behaviors. In prey drive you have behavior that causes a dog to reach his goal and satisfy it. Some of the behavior of prey drive are stalking,,freezing (pointing),, herding,,,,giving eye,,, chasing,,,,,shaking prey to dispatch,, quartering,,,, searching,,,, and probably others I have missed. You can see that man has harnessed the desired traits and instilled them in the different breeds.
    This is an illustration that will help you understand pack drive ,,,but i'm out of time now ,more later[/QUOTE]

    I never would have thought of herding as prey drive. Interesting and it does make sense. I look forward to your description of pack drive, what it is and how it manifests itself and then how this quality is desirable in a retriever.

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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Judy Rasmuson was part of a very interesting discussion/interview with Dennis Voigt (I believe it was him off the top of my head) in GRCA magazine a year ago. She noted that successful field trial dogs possessed just the right combination of two traits, intense drive coupled with compliance. She further noted this combination was way more common with Labs than Goldens.

    Goldens with intense drive are not common, but can be found with the proper breeding, high drive Goldens that are also compliant are very rare. These dogs can be spectacular markers, very fast and flashy uncanny bird finding machines. But that trait leads them to be super confident and very hard to handle, they think they know better than you, just point them in the right direction, say back and let them do their thing. They seem to resent being stopped in route, and are reluctant, if not totally defiant handling dogs. I know, I have had a couple of these along with a few medium drive more compliant dogs. I'll still take the high drive dog and keep my fingers crossed that he is in a mind to behave all three days of a trial.
    Last edited by John Robinson; 11-27-2013 at 12:57 PM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post

    I never would have thought of herding as prey drive. Interesting and it does make sense. I look forward to your description of pack drive, what it is and how it manifests itself and then how this quality is desirable in a retriever.

    I understand "pack instinct" to be the dog's acceptance of the group social organization. The dog knows the human is in charge, and if he has good pack instinct he will want to please his human and be trainable/bidable. I hope Pete will clarify.

    Edit: instead of "want to please his human" I should have written "agree to cooperate with is human"
    Last edited by mitty; 11-27-2013 at 01:07 PM.
    Renee P

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I understand "pack instinct" to be the dog's acceptance of the group social organization. The dog knows the human is in charge, and if he has good pack instinct he will want to please his human and be trainable/bidable. I hope Pete will clarify.

    Edit: instead of "want to please his human" I should have written "agree to cooperate with is human"
    Now you have made me think again. I have always thought the "want to please his human" as bonding. I never have distinguished that from "agree to cooperate", not the same but in my opinion symbionic. I wonder if one could say that a dog "wants to please" but not "agree to cooperate". Seems to me that this could not be the case. I can see how a dog could "agree to cooperate" but not necessarily "want to please".

  10. #110
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    I think the dog can want to please by getting the bird but not want to cooperate by doing it within the rules. Like, say, breaking, where the dog wants to please by getting the bird but doesn't want to wait to be released to get it. Maybe prey drive>pack drive at that instant? This could also be illustrated by a blowing off of a whistle sit when the dog is close to the blind or not taking a cast away from where the dog thinks it is and thus wants to go.

    Pete/Darrin, feel free to step in here and educate me.
    Steve Wyatt

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