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Thread: To Much Drive?

  1. #111
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthseeker View Post
    Darrin, This is going off on a tangent, I really would like to know how you are handling this type of dog.

    I have had a few, Their drive was high and their lines where vary good, but they would over run their retrieves and hunt deep. I also know that their working attitude was good, so I came to the conclusion that pressure was not need. I would give them a loud HAY, HAY as they ran past the mark. I did this every time for about 2 months. I seem to work well for me. Just wondering how you handled it.

    Thanks Keith
    I didn't actually solve it with her Keith. I use her for obedience demos and hunting. If she over runs a bird on a hunt I just handle her back and get it done. I ran out of time for training groups as my obedience business has taken off, so I haven't been working on any hunt test/field trial marking with her. She's awesome as a demo dog in obedience and that's where I really need her to be. Hunting/hunting tests are really a sideline for now.

    If I were to try and solve it, I would try several things.

    1. White bumpers on short grass to teach "bird by gun" (she tumbles ass over head on these trying to stop).
    2. Salting the area with birds and stomping down a lot of grass in the area as well as running her last to teach her to recognize the small of birds and or foot scent/disturbance
    3. Gunner help (although I would rather she self discover where the bird is).
    4. I think the 'dirt clog drill" is designed to help with this but have never used it.
    5. I might use terrain on a limited basis to create a wall behind the fall, in order to prevent her from running long.
    6. Just let the dog mature over time and get more experience.

    It's all very passive teaching so it would take a while to cement.

    I have always been taught that pressure in that proximity to the gun is a terrible idea and I can see why, so I wouldn't choose that method.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 11-27-2013 at 06:13 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  2. #112
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    I think the dog can want to please by getting the bird but not want to cooperate by doing it within the rules. Like, say, breaking, where the dog wants to please by getting the bird but doesn't want to wait to be released to get it. Maybe prey drive>pack drive at that instant? This could also be illustrated by a blowing off of a whistle sit when the dog is close to the blind or not taking a cast away from where the dog thinks it is and thus wants to go.

    Pete/Darrin, feel free to step in here and educate me.
    who knows that they're thinking in those situations Steve? I sure can't read their minds but... if you believe everything you read and or hear, the dog is satisfying it's own prey drive by disobeying the handler's wish in those cases. It may be an issue of willful disobedience or not knowing how to behave properly in their highest state of excitement. One has to make an assumption as to which motivation causes the problem in order to stop it. Or, just do what you think is fair and hope for the best. That's how most people operate IMHO, despite what they claim to know about a dog's motivation. I'm of the opinion personally that when anyone says "he's doing X because in his head he's thinking Y", they must me making an assumption, since the dog certainly can't express it's thoughts in a manner we can truly understand (language). So we do our best to address issues like this based on what we think the dog knows and what we think is fair and justified. Over many many dogs and many many years an experienced trainer (generally a pro) comes to understand the common causes, effects and solutions and how to avoid / apply them, however, I have seen trainers with upwards of 50 FC's trained in their career come up with new, innovative ways to solve problems. This says to me that there is never a black and white answer, even though maybe 9 out of 10 dogs fit a certain mold.

    Breaking is the easiest example of the two. I have a dog I taught to sit automatically when a bird is thrown. She's never, in her life been allowed a retrieve without sitting first, or being given a release word at the time of the throw. Literally, I mean if the dog is standing next to me and I throw a bumper she will sit, rather than leave, unless I say her name. At 18 months and several thousand successful reps, the dog knows what she's supposed to do. She's demonstrated that understanding hundreds and hundreds of times. Now... I don't know if, when she's wound up she breaks because she's thinking "screw him" or, she's just more excited than ever and forgot to think. In both case though, because she knows very very well what the appropriate behavior is, serious punishment of the incorrect behavior can be employed without destroying her attitude. This allows me to deal with very few infractions in a meaningful way, rather than constantly nagging the dog with a heeling stick or the e-collar. Having said all that... I have NO IDEA WHAT SHE'S REALLY THINKING. I just know I'm being fair even though the correction is very meaningful.

    I hope that makes some sense. In essence I'm saying... we can only assume what their thinking and react in as faithful a manner as possible to correct the behavior.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 11-27-2013 at 06:52 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  3. #113
    Senior Member truthseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    I think the dog can want to please by getting the bird but not want to cooperate by doing it within the rules. Like, say, breaking, where the dog wants to please by getting the bird but doesn't want to wait to be released to get it. Maybe prey drive>pack drive at that instant? This could also be illustrated by a blowing off of a whistle sit when the dog is close to the blind or not taking a cast away from where the dog thinks it is and thus wants to go.

    Pete/Darrin, feel free to step in here and educate me.
    While we are waiting for Pete and Darrin

    I really don't think that Fido is trying to please you by getting the bird. I think Fido has just pleased himself.

    Example;
    A friend of mine who grows birds for me had his incubators in his back yard. One night about half got out. When he came out in the morning, Ginger his yellow lab,
    had them nicely staked under the trampoline. I don't think she was thinking about Rex at the time. I laughed my a** off and said, you do know she is a hunting dog.

    Keith

  4. #114
    Senior Member truthseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I didn't actually solve it with her Keith. I use her for obedience demos and hunting. If she over runs a bird on a hunt I just handle her back and get it done. I ran out of time for training groups as my obedience business has taken off, so I haven't been working on any hunt test/field trial marking with her. She's awesome as a demo dog in obedience and that's where I really need her to be. Hunting/hunting tests are really a sideline for now.

    If I were to try and solve it, I would try several things.



    1. White bumpers on short grass to teach "bird by gun" (she tumbles ass over head on these trying to stop).
    2. Salting the area with birds and stomping down a lot of grass in the area as well as running her last to teach her to recognize the small of birds and or foot scent/disturbance
    3. Gunner help (although I would rather she self discover where the bird is).
    4. I think the 'dirt clog drill" is designed to help with this but have never used it.
    5. I might use terrain on a limited basis to create a wall behind the fall, in order to prevent her from running long.
    6. Just let the dog mature over time and get more experience.

    It's all very passive teaching so it would take a while to cement.

    I have always been taught that pressure in that proximity to the gun is a terrible idea and I can see why, so I wouldn't choose that method.
    I noticed that we where posting at the same time. just wanted to know your thoughts.

    Thanks again Keith

  5. #115
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthseeker View Post
    I noticed that we where posting at the same time. just wanted to know your thoughts.

    Thanks again Keith
    Anytime. I don't know all these answers by any means. Someone, somewhere probably has a better answer. I can just say what makes sense to me.
    Darrin Greene

  6. #116
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    Pack dive encompasses many behaviors also just like prey.
    Some breeds are generally naturally low in it making them more difficult to train and they actually like spending time away from groups. Oriental breeds such as the chow chow or sharpie are an good example. But sometimes you run across some which train really nice and those often like to hang out in the group or family. They tend to act different in general than the alloof members.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  7. #117
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    A dog who works well with his leader is said to have high pack drive. Yet some high pack drive dogs don't work well with the handler,,because there are other things that affect the dogs willingness to conform. Is the personality of the dog such that it learns quickly but continues to do it his way until enough corrections are administered. Day after day the same scenario arises. I say do this,,the dog does that ,,and you administer the corrections and everything is good. well for today anyway. Pack drive is only a part of what makes a dog highly trainable , There are a lot of factors. Is the dog of a subordinate nature,,,a domineering nature. Both can be high pack.

    Trainability encompasses the entire dog's personality. All the drives and all the sensitivities to its environment.
    Last edited by Pete; 11-27-2013 at 07:34 PM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  8. #118
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    Now you have made me think again. I have always thought the "want to please his human" as bonding. I never have distinguished that from "agree to cooperate", not the same but in my opinion symbionic. I wonder if one could say that a dog "wants to please" but not "agree to cooperate". Seems to me that this could not be the case. I can see how a dog could "agree to cooperate" but not necessarily "want to please"

    Dogs and the things dogs do are pleasing to us. But their motivation is not to please us but to please or satisfy themselves. Its hard to imagine that when we look into there soft brown eyes. They stick their head in our lap not to console or comfort but to get scratched. They chase down birds because they are driven to do so.
    They bring us birds or toys in hope to get you to throw it again or to initiate play, Thats OK It works great for both parties involved. I will try to write something on pack d tomarro,,,My brain is spent.
    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    A dog who works well with his leader is said to have high pack drive. Yet some high pack drive dogs don't work well with the handler,,because there are other things that affect the dogs willingness to conform. Is the personality of the dog such that it learns quickly but continues to do it his way until enough corrections are administered. Day after day the same scenario arises. I say do this,,the dog does that ,,and you administer the corrections and everything is good. well for today anyway. Pack drive is only a part of what makes a dog highly trainable , There are a lot of factors. Is the dog of a subordinate nature,,,a domineering nature. Both can be high pack.

    Trainability encompasses the entire dog's personality. All the drives and all the sensitivities to its environment.
    Now I am confused. If as Mitty said, high pack drive is the dog's willingness to "agree to cooperate" with it's leader(owner?)(handler?), Does the 2nd dog you mention NOT recognize the handler as it's leader? I don't think that a dog that has learned easily what to do but has no willingness to agree to do what it has learned would be considered a dog that has agreed to cooperate.Let me put the question another way. What quality could the 2 dogs have in common that you would define as "high pack drive"?

  10. #120
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Now I am confused. If as Mitty said, high pack drive is the dog's willingness to "agree to cooperate" with it's leader(owner?)(handler?), Does the 2nd dog you mention NOT recognize the handler as it's leader? I don't think that a dog that has learned easily what to do but has no willingness to agree to do what it has learned would be considered a dog that has agreed to cooperate.Let me put the question another way. What quality could the 2 dogs have in common that you would define as "high pack drive"?
    I think RookieTrainer had a good analogy but the wrong cause---like Truth, I viewed the dog's choice to break as an act to please itself in Rookie's scenario. Dog may be a team player, but sometimes the other drives and instincts override the pack drive/instinct (and training).

    This has been an interesting discussion. Some of the stuff I have learned by reading Truth, Pete and Darrin's posts are starting to sink in.
    Last edited by mitty; 11-27-2013 at 08:21 PM. Reason: bad grammar
    Renee P

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