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Thread: To Much Drive?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I think RookieTrainer had a good analogy but the wrong cause---like Truth, I viewed the dog's choice to break as an act to please itself in Rookie's scenario. Dog may be a team player, but sometimes the other drives and instincts override the pack drive/instinct (and training).

    This has been an interesting discussion. Some of the stuff I have learned by reading Truth, Pete and Darrin's posts are starting to sink in.

    But would that not have to be the exception rather than the rule?

    It is an interesting discussion. If prey and pack drive are qualities that are important in evaluating the promise of a dog, then should not one attempt to identify those qualities or lack there of?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    But would that not have to be the exception rather than the rule?

    It is an interesting discussion. If prey and pack drive are qualities that are important in evaluating the promise of a dog, then should not one attempt to identify those qualities or lack there of?
    For the first time trainer, probably not.

  3. #123
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    [QUOTENow I am confused. If as Mitty said, high pack drive is the dog's willingness to "agree to cooperate" with it's leader(owner?)(handler?), Does the 2nd dog you mention NOT recognize the handler as it's leader? I don't think that a dog that has learned easily what to do but has no willingness to agree to do what it has learned would be considered a dog that has agreed to cooperate.Let me put the question another way. What quality could the 2 dogs have in common that you would define as "high pack drive"?][/QUOTE]

    An example might be
    both handler and dog have a tendency to lead. The dog thinks the human has low pack drive. Like I said my brain is spent..
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  4. #124
    Senior Member BJGatley's Avatar
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    Understand that your body posture, your voice and eye contact sez a lot. When I stand rigid, they take notice and watch keenly in what I do next. When I sit down, they are relax and come toward me....They know and are better at it than we are.
    My penny worth...

  5. #125
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    I think RookieTrainer had a good analogy but the wrong cause---like Truth, I viewed the dog's choice to break as an act to please itself in Rookie's scenario. Dog may be a team player, but sometimes the other drives and instincts override the pack drive/instinct (and training).

    This has been an interesting discussion. Some of the stuff I have learned by reading Truth, Pete and Darrin's posts are starting to sink in
    There you go Renee
    High pack is influence by other drives,personality traits and other sensitivities to the dogs environment.
    Same with high prey.
    Thats why we want a dog to have all its inate qualities in balance.
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 11-27-2013 at 08:53 PM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGatley View Post
    For the first time trainer, probably not.
    Regardless of whether the trainer was a first time trainer or an experienced one, would it not be beneficial to both to be aware of the strengths of prey and pack drive? Take a dog with high prey drive and low pack drive as opposed to a dog with low prey drive and high pack drive. I would think these traits would be a significant factor in evaluating whether it was an exception to the rule or not and therefore affect the training approach one should take.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Regardless of whether the trainer was a first time trainer or an experienced one, would it not be beneficial to both to be aware of the strengths of prey and pack drive? Take a dog with high prey drive and low pack drive as opposed to a dog with low prey drive and high pack drive. I would think these traits would be a significant factor in evaluating whether it was an exception to the rule or not and therefore affect the training approach one should take.
    Yes to the answer to the experience trainer. To a newbie, it's all gobbiegope....They don't even know what CC,FF or vice versa or something to that effect. We don't want them to be overwhelm when first going out. We want them to understand dog basics and let them go and ask questions then when they understand what it is all about. I believe it is only fair.
    I hope that makes sense.

    Edit to post: Granted this is a human thing...If I was given the best shotgun in the world(An old AYA) doesn't mean I will shoot the best of all. I might not be able to shoot the broad side of a barn. If I seek guidance in shooting 1&1, then I might be able to shoot the barn. If I ask more guidance then maybe I can shoot a moving target. I have the instrument....and right now that is only a instrument. When I gain knowledge then the instrument becomes me.
    Last edited by BJGatley; 11-27-2013 at 11:21 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I think RookieTrainer had a good analogy but the wrong cause---like Truth, I viewed the dog's choice to break as an act to please itself in Rookie's scenario. Dog may be a team player, but sometimes the other drives and instincts override the pack drive/instinct (and training).

    This has been an interesting discussion. Some of the stuff I have learned by reading Truth, Pete and Darrin's posts are starting to sink in.
    In thinking more about this and reading the subsequent posts, I think my analogy was incorrect and is probably the basis of a large percentage of training frustration for me and others. It's really not a lot different that employee incentives - find out what a given employee wants and tie it to the performance the employer wants. Why the employee wants whatever it is turns out to be essentially irrelevant; it is enough to know that they want it.

    My dog is having some steadiness issues because I have allowed him to get what he desires - the bird - without consistently giving me the performance I want - steadiness. There is no question that it is my fault. Since I know the thing he wants most is the bird, the steadiness cure seems clear: no OB = no bird. As the standard gets gradually tougher, the equation remains the same. I wish I could say I came up with this simple solution on my own.

    To circle back around, unless a given dog is just stupid, to use a bad word, I am not sure that you can't use his prey drive against him to enforce at least a minimum level of pack drive - with the right mindset on the part of the trainer, that I am trying to develop. Thoughts?

    So far I have found that it is working, and that when he started to understand that no OB = no bird, he started giving me what I wanted. We have a long way to go and many different situations to do this in to proof it as a new, replacement habit, but it all comes from the fact that he will do about anything to get a bird - for his own selfish reasons. Once I get it ingrained that "anything to get a bird" = strict OB, I think the two of us can make some progress.
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    In thinking more about this and reading the subsequent posts, I think my analogy was incorrect and is probably the basis of a large percentage of training frustration for me and others. It's really not a lot different that employee incentives - find out what a given employee wants and tie it to the performance the employer wants. Why the employee wants whatever it is turns out to be essentially irrelevant; it is enough to know that they want it.

    My dog is having some steadiness issues because I have allowed him to get what he desires - the bird - without consistently giving me the performance I want - steadiness. There is no question that it is my fault. Since I know the thing he wants most is the bird, the steadiness cure seems clear: no OB = no bird. As the standard gets gradually tougher, the equation remains the same. I wish I could say I came up with this simple solution on my own.

    To circle back around, unless a given dog is just stupid, to use a bad word, I am not sure that you can't use his prey drive against him to enforce at least a minimum level of pack drive - with the right mindset on the part of the trainer, that I am trying to develop. Thoughts?

    So far I have found that it is working, and that when he started to understand that no OB = no bird, he started giving me what I wanted. We have a long way to go and many different situations to do this in to proof it as a new, replacement habit, but it all comes from the fact that he will do about anything to get a bird - for his own selfish reasons. Once I get it ingrained that "anything to get a bird" = strict OB, I think the two of us can make some progress.
    Happy thanksgiving , Don't have a lot of time, but I want to mention that I also like Darrin idea, to steady to wing. That way your dog will know to sit and wait before the shoot goes off. Also make him sit during down time and every time you stop.

    Example:

    Instead of just putting each dog away after I run them. I make then sit and wait while I set up for the next one. Even in group training. I will take my young ones and put them in the center of the group while all the BS is going on before we start and make them sit there. This is all so good for honer ( Down)

    Keith

  10. #130
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    So Pete, Extreme prey drive + Very Low pack drive = Indy? He was always the aloof one as a young dog. Only now since I have stopped really training or attempting to compete has he become a lovey dovey house pet. But somehow none of the prey drive has gone away, he has just become more responsive to me in all situations EXCEPT retrieving. And to Steve, yes what you are doing will work, if you start before the dog is completely trial wise and set in their ways. I started too late and gave up too easily. I just got another dog and retired the first one!
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

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