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Thread: To Much Drive?

  1. #131
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    So Pete, Extreme prey drive + Very Low pack drive = Indy? He was always the aloof one as a young dog. Only now since I have stopped really training or attempting to compete has he become a lovey dovey house pet. But somehow none of the prey drive has gone away, he has just become more responsive to me in all situations EXCEPT retrieving. And to Steve, yes what you are doing will work, if you start before the dog is completely trial wise and set in their ways. I started too late and gave up too easily. I just got another dog and retired the first one!
    Carol
    I would consider Indy High pack and High Prey
    I think he likes to lead and not pay attention much to the handler and he is excitable anticipating birds, and watching them. Just to excitable
    He wasn't balanced in all the attributes dog must posess to be succesful in FT,,,but a wonderful dog non the less. Prey brought out his Domineering attiude
    Domineering personalities often behave as Indy. They resist being led because their personality is to lead not be led. If high pack allows for a follower it must also allow for a leader.

    And when the fight to train a certain way is over ,, they file right in place because the battle of wills is over. Now its time be be lovey dovey showing another side of high pack
    My best guess Carol
    Happy Thanksgiving to you and Ralph

    pete
    Last edited by Pete; 11-28-2013 at 04:13 PM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  2. #132
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Very astute observation Pete. I gave up the fight and got the greatest buddy in the world! Now why doesn't my willing, calm and trainable boy have those eyes and that go! Oh well, if God made 'em perfect we would not get the joy of training them!
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2tall View Post
    And to Steve, yes what you are doing will work, if you start before the dog is completely trial wise and set in their ways. I started too late and gave up too easily. I just got another dog and retired the first one!
    Thanks for the encouragement. I think the message is starting to break through, and I now have the job of being consistent in denial of retrieves for movement until he decides that he will do what he is asked if it is the only way to get the bird. And I have some additional work to do to transition that over to the honor.

    I got several good honors out of him this PM, and he actually never broke or even moved on the honor. I thought about handing one of my training partners $75 to get him to break, since it seems to work at the hunt tests.

    I got to pick him up at the line twice for raising his rear end, which was good. Of course when he did hold it together long enough to get released he hammered the marks, which was encouraging.

    I also got some tips on handling, and specifically how not to wind him up even more with a couple things I was doing. Probably 10 years and 3 dogs from now I will be approaching a minimal level of competence.
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

  4. #134
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Dogs and the things dogs do are pleasing to us. But their motivation is not to please us but to please or satisfy themselves. Its hard to imagine that when we look into there soft brown eyes. They stick their head in our lap not to console or comfort but to get scratched. They chase down birds because they are driven to do so.
    They bring us birds or toys in hope to get you to throw it again or to initiate play, Thats OK It works great for both parties involved. I will try to write something on pack d tomarro,,,My brain is spent.
    Pete
    That's one of the very best posts I've seen ANYWHERE in a while about a dog Pete. When I can get people to understand that in obedience training we seem to get the best results. It's all about "what's in it for me" with a dog. Just happens that what's in it for them also pleases us people.
    Darrin Greene

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    But would that not have to be the exception rather than the rule?

    It is an interesting discussion. If prey and pack drive are qualities that are important in evaluating the promise of a dog, then should not one attempt to identify those qualities or lack there of?
    People do that every day. That's why we have washouts.

    That's why we pick our battles.

    That's why some dogs are search and rescue, some therapy, some hunting and some protection.

    A good program assigns a dog to the job that fits it's personality. I good owner is flexible enough to do the same. Forcing square dogs into round holes is usually no fun for anyone (especially the dog).
    Darrin Greene

  6. #136
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Carol
    I would consider Indy High pack and High Prey
    I think he likes to lead and not pay attention much to the handler and he is excitable anticipating birds, and watching them. Just to excitable
    He wasn't balanced in all the attributes dog must posess to be succesful in FT,,,but a wonderful dog non the less. Prey brought out his Domineering attiude
    Domineering personalities often behave as Indy. They resist being led because their personality is to lead not be led. If high pack allows for a follower it must also allow for a leader.

    And when the fight to train a certain way is over ,, they file right in place because the battle of wills is over. Now its time be be lovey dovey showing another side of high pack
    My best guess Carol
    Happy Thanksgiving to you and Ralph

    pete
    I agree with Pete, having spent enough time with Indy to know him pretty well. I don't think of him as an alpha kind of dog...he really didn't want to control everybody else. He just wanted what HE wanted, and to heck with what anybody else wanted.

    When I think of pack drive, I sort of relate it to people too. You know how the gang mentality works....a group of kids getting into trouble as a group, when as singles they would likely not do the same behaviors, but the pack mentality takes over. And there's often a loose cannon in those groups....you know, the kid who isn't the leader but consistently goes over the top and does something outrageous?

    Or for a more toned down example, a church congregation. Let's say we're attending a Catholic mass, where everybody is following a calm, consistent,quiet routine. Indy would be the guy who jumps up and yells at the top of his lungs "can I hear an Amen, brother!" in the middle of the service while the rest of the congregation stares at him for disrupting things. Heartfelt? Yes. Probably inappropriate in that setting? Yep.
    Last edited by Sharon Potter; 11-30-2013 at 09:37 PM.
    Sharon Potter

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  7. #137
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Sharon, you just made kind of a rotten morning much, much brighter. I smiled so big when I read your post that people watching me thought I was probably doing something illegal!
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    People do that every day. That's why we have washouts.

    That's why we pick our battles.

    That's why some dogs are search and rescue, some therapy, some hunting and some protection.

    A good program assigns a dog to the job that fits it's personality. I good owner is flexible enough to do the same. Forcing square dogs into round holes is usually no fun for anyone (especially the dog).
    That is why I asked the question. I had not heard the term "pack drive" but I did have some understanding of dominance and submissiveness. I even have a book where the author talks about those acts of a dog that projects dominance or submissiveness. The decision to wash out a dog should not be taken lightly and all factors should be evaluated(quantified?). Not only do they have to be evaluated but the prospects of bringing them into balance has to be considered.

    These things may be complex and difficult, but why else would one seriously want to train a dog?

  9. #139
    Senior Member WBF's Avatar
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    Great posts Pete and Darrin you guy hit it on the head. We look for high powered animals but want to say they have to much drive rather than saying they arent team players. High driven dogs make this sport its the ones that understand teamwork or the "trade off" that shine. Yeah there are dogs that make training a pain because of their personalities but finding a special one that will do anything for the barter of a bird very well could be the best dog one ever has. Adjust your training to what fits each dog, don't blame the dog all the time.
    Last edited by WBF; 12-02-2013 at 09:15 AM.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthseeker View Post
    Darrin, This is going off on a tangent, I really would like to know how you are handling this type of dog.

    I have had a few, Their drive was high and their lines where vary good, but they would over run their retrieves and hunt deep. I also know that their working attitude was good, so I came to the conclusion that pressure was not need. I would give them a loud HAY, HAY as they ran past the mark. I did this every time for about 2 months. I seem to work well for me. Just wondering how you handled it.

    Thanks Keith
    High Drive has little to do with marking.
    High Drive gives a dog perseverance in the hunt, but doesn't not equal good marking. High Drive in the hands of a rookie trainer could cause marking to become very poor. Dog puts on big hunts because his drive and perseverance is so high but the dog never marks a birds. The dog just runs frantic until his need for a bird is fulfilled.
    I have seen low drive dogs that were very good markers but would of gotten 2's for style.
    Simplify marks puppies should be marking not hunting. When teaching young dogs to mark make sure they have every chance to see the mark hit the ground and that the AOF is in short cover or no cover at all. So the pup is learning to use their eyes and not their nose. If the pup can see the mark through the air and as it hits the ground and if the AOF to clear and short, the pup should not be over running marks.
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