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Thread: very vocal on cripple retrieves

  1. #11
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    My boykin barks at cripples too.

  2. #12
    Senior Member sick lids's Avatar
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    My pup get a cussing problem with cripples 2.

  3. #13
    Senior Member T-Pines's Avatar
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    I was hoping that this discussion would take off a little bit into some potentially interesting directions:

    • the powerful primary reinforcement of prey drive activities
    • association of behaviors - are all behaviors (eg, vocalization) associated with the chase behavior reinforced as powerfully in combination with the chase behavior? I would guess that they are.
    • extreme arousal - excitement vs. frustration; any difference in strategy?
    • vocalization - voluntary vs. involuntary (whether dog is conscious of vocalizing); training strategy and outcomes


    Also, questions for Wayne ...
    Did you really do nothing to discourage Rowdy from vocalizing during chase of cripple? If you did nothing to address it, why not? Vocalization behavior diminishing without any "training" intervention seems extremely unlikely to me given the powerfully reinforcing nature of prey drive activity. Chasing a live, moving cripple is the highest order of prey drive activity that I can think of.

    I don't have personal experience with this but am interested in hearing more from those who have successfully reduced vocalization during the chase. My inclination would be to back up to very low arousal stimulus, gradually adding arousal factors in an attempt to isolate and manage the vocalization behavior. I would possibly consider doing quite a bit of live bird work in a blind running context, as opposed to marking situations, so that I can liberally interject obedience into the routine to interrupt the chase, manage and cap the drive arousal.

    Jim

  4. #14
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Jim,
    My seven year old barks as he chases a cripple in water. I can tell he's frustrated that he's not getting to that bird as fast as normal, but he eventually does catch it and the drama is over. He doesn't do it every time, maybe 30% of the time. I wouldn't know how to correct it if I wanted to, I'm just glad we usually don't have free swimming cripples in field trials, so I just let him get the bird and move on. With all the other serious training issues a field trial dog has, this is really not a big deal to me.

    John

  5. #15
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    to the OP: Decide whether it's a big deal or not... if it is then...

    First and foremost you need to stop letting your 1 yr old pick up cripples, unless you want this to continue getting worse until she does it on every retrieve.

    Second, if you want to fix it you're going to need some live birds (white pigeons would be my personal choice)

    Third, start on land with whatever solutions you try to create.

    You have two ways to discourage the vocalization. Deny the reward (retrieve) or add punishment (e-collar, pinch collar etc.) You can use both simultaneously.

    You have two ways to encourage quiet. Remove the annoyance (e-collar or pinch collar) and add the reward (retrieve).

    How you do these things mechanically is entirely on you to figure out. Be aware that the first method you choose (and the second or third) may not produce the result you want. Be on the look out for other undesirable behaviors cropping up (chomping and such), because when you start bottling prey drive and frustration together, you sometimes get an explosion.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 12-03-2013 at 02:00 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  6. #16
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    In the words of a very good friend ''If pressure caused it,pressure will fix it''
    I read the first page of this thread and got bored. Until T-Pines posted. Quote :"I don't have personal experience with this but am interested in hearing more from those who have successfully reduced vocalization during the chase".

    Noise/vocalization is a behaviour that is triggered by an event or series of events. I have 'masked' that behaviour with several dogs ,but never ''cured'' what was installed earlier in the young dogs ''critical'' learning phase.It has never been the breed line (imo) !!..Ask for a remedy/cure on here???..Not a chance!!
    Best of luck with your dog.
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    to the OP: Decide whether it's a big deal or not... if it is then...

    First and foremost you need to stop letting your 1 yr old pick up cripples, unless you want this to continue getting worse until she does it on every retrieve.

    Second, if you want to fix it you're going to need some live birds (white pigeons would be my personal choice)

    Third, start on land with whatever solutions you try to create.

    You have two ways to discourage the vocalization. Deny the reward (retrieve) or add punishment (e-collar, pinch collar etc.) You can use both simultaneously.

    You have two ways to encourage quiet. Remove the annoyance (e-collar or pinch collar) and add the reward (retrieve).

    How you do these things mechanically is entirely on you to figure out. Be aware that the first method you choose (and the second or third) may not produce the result you want. Be on the look out for other undesirable behaviors cropping up (chomping and such), because when you start bottling prey drive and frustration together, you sometimes get an explosion.

    Good luck!
    To me its a big deal. You would think I was killing her on the lively cripples that she thought was going to get away from her(very loud). We have 25 or so live mallards. Start with live retrieves in the field? Easy retrieves? Then longer, then water?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    In the words of a very good friend ''If pressure caused it,pressure will fix it''
    I read the first page of this thread and got bored. Until T-Pines posted. Quote :"I don't have personal experience with this but am interested in hearing more from those who have successfully reduced vocalization during the chase".

    Noise/vocalization is a behaviour that is triggered by an event or series of events. I have 'masked' that behaviour with several dogs ,but never ''cured'' what was installed earlier in the young dogs ''critical'' learning phase.It has never been the breed line (imo) !!..Ask for a remedy/cure on here???..Not a chance!!
    Best of luck with your dog.
    Not sure if the if pressure or early training caused this. The trainer I was dissapointed with. Don't think he introduced her to birds at all. I think the only pressure he applied was obedience and force fetch. You think the pressure from force fetch caused this? First hunt was youth weekend Nov. 2nd, I had to work with her for a hunt and a half before she picked up what was supposed to be happening. The last 7 ducks of the 2nd hunt she worked flawlessly. Now after that she just got more intense every hunt, she would retrieve to hand and immediately return to the end of the dog blind and watch the horizon for ducks after about 5 hunts . She made a total of maybe 16 hunts, the last 5 or 6 hunts she started with the vocalizing. The only corrections I have had to make was when she broke a couple times, after some missed shots. Not trying to contradict your thoughts, just wanted you to know the whole story. She is an awesome dog. I am extremely pleased with her, except the vocalizing.

  9. #19
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    I don't think anything caused it. My guess is your dog is crazy for birds, and that's a good thing. But, and this goes to the "too much drive" thread, she want's that bird so bad, has picked up a bunch of dead ones already, so is shocked and annoyed when the occasional bird refuses to lay still waiting to be retrieved. Hopefully she gets used to cripples, otherwise you may have to try something like Darrin suggested.

    John

  10. #20
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrous2 View Post
    To me its a big deal. You would think I was killing her on the lively cripples that she thought was going to get away from her(very loud). We have 25 or so live mallards. Start with live retrieves in the field? Easy retrieves? Then longer, then water?
    Yes. My guess would be if you either pull the primaries or put a stocking on a duck and turn it loose with her on lead she'll immediately start whining. I would put her on a long line and let the duck run around until she quieted down completely, then count to at least 5 or maybe even 10. Until I got 10 seconds of silence I wouldn't release her. Even then, I would make sure the duck was within range of a long line so I could stop her if she made a peep after being released.

    That's where I'd start. You only get to retrieve if you're 100% quiet.

    Also, go back over your whole life with the dog and look for frustration type barking. If she barks for her food, to get in or out of the house, anything that she wants and can't have, you have to address those issues also.

    Hopefully like John said it's just an issue of being insane for birds and that insanity will help you to train her to be quiet easily because she is so driven for the reward.

    And just so you know.. I'm no expert on this particular issue. I just understand how re-enforcement works when combined with self discovery.

    Meaning... if you just wait and let her figure it out on her own while she's completely wound up, she will habituate the appropriate behavior and there will be less chance of it coming back in the future, as well as little to no chance of side effects.

    You start messing with a collar for this stuff and as I mentioned, things can get risky. Behaviors tend to come back and other even harder to fix behaviors can become problematic. I'd try really hard not to punish this beyond withholding the retrieve.

    Just me. I'm no expert.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 12-03-2013 at 06:35 PM.
    Darrin Greene

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