My boykin barks at cripples too.
My boykin barks at cripples too.
My pup get a cussing problem with cripples 2.
I was hoping that this discussion would take off a little bit into some potentially interesting directions:
- the powerful primary reinforcement of prey drive activities
- association of behaviors - are all behaviors (eg, vocalization) associated with the chase behavior reinforced as powerfully in combination with the chase behavior? I would guess that they are.
- extreme arousal - excitement vs. frustration; any difference in strategy?
- vocalization - voluntary vs. involuntary (whether dog is conscious of vocalizing); training strategy and outcomes
Also, questions for Wayne ...
Did you really do nothing to discourage Rowdy from vocalizing during chase of cripple? If you did nothing to address it, why not? Vocalization behavior diminishing without any "training" intervention seems extremely unlikely to me given the powerfully reinforcing nature of prey drive activity. Chasing a live, moving cripple is the highest order of prey drive activity that I can think of.
I don't have personal experience with this but am interested in hearing more from those who have successfully reduced vocalization during the chase. My inclination would be to back up to very low arousal stimulus, gradually adding arousal factors in an attempt to isolate and manage the vocalization behavior. I would possibly consider doing quite a bit of live bird work in a blind running context, as opposed to marking situations, so that I can liberally interject obedience into the routine to interrupt the chase, manage and cap the drive arousal.
My seven year old barks as he chases a cripple in water. I can tell he's frustrated that he's not getting to that bird as fast as normal, but he eventually does catch it and the drama is over. He doesn't do it every time, maybe 30% of the time. I wouldn't know how to correct it if I wanted to, I'm just glad we usually don't have free swimming cripples in field trials, so I just let him get the bird and move on. With all the other serious training issues a field trial dog has, this is really not a big deal to me.
to the OP: Decide whether it's a big deal or not... if it is then...
First and foremost you need to stop letting your 1 yr old pick up cripples, unless you want this to continue getting worse until she does it on every retrieve.
Second, if you want to fix it you're going to need some live birds (white pigeons would be my personal choice)
Third, start on land with whatever solutions you try to create.
You have two ways to discourage the vocalization. Deny the reward (retrieve) or add punishment (e-collar, pinch collar etc.) You can use both simultaneously.
You have two ways to encourage quiet. Remove the annoyance (e-collar or pinch collar) and add the reward (retrieve).
How you do these things mechanically is entirely on you to figure out. Be aware that the first method you choose (and the second or third) may not produce the result you want. Be on the look out for other undesirable behaviors cropping up (chomping and such), because when you start bottling prey drive and frustration together, you sometimes get an explosion.
Last edited by DarrinGreene; 12-03-2013 at 02:00 PM.
In the words of a very good friend ''If pressure caused it,pressure will fix it''
I read the first page of this thread and got bored. Until T-Pines posted. Quote :"I don't have personal experience with this but am interested in hearing more from those who have successfully reduced vocalization during the chase".
Noise/vocalization is a behaviour that is triggered by an event or series of events. I have 'masked' that behaviour with several dogs ,but never ''cured'' what was installed earlier in the young dogs ''critical'' learning phase.It has never been the breed line (imo) !!..Ask for a remedy/cure on here???..Not a chance!!
Best of luck with your dog.
One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever
I don't think anything caused it. My guess is your dog is crazy for birds, and that's a good thing. But, and this goes to the "too much drive" thread, she want's that bird so bad, has picked up a bunch of dead ones already, so is shocked and annoyed when the occasional bird refuses to lay still waiting to be retrieved. Hopefully she gets used to cripples, otherwise you may have to try something like Darrin suggested.
That's where I'd start. You only get to retrieve if you're 100% quiet.
Also, go back over your whole life with the dog and look for frustration type barking. If she barks for her food, to get in or out of the house, anything that she wants and can't have, you have to address those issues also.
Hopefully like John said it's just an issue of being insane for birds and that insanity will help you to train her to be quiet easily because she is so driven for the reward.
And just so you know.. I'm no expert on this particular issue. I just understand how re-enforcement works when combined with self discovery.
Meaning... if you just wait and let her figure it out on her own while she's completely wound up, she will habituate the appropriate behavior and there will be less chance of it coming back in the future, as well as little to no chance of side effects.
You start messing with a collar for this stuff and as I mentioned, things can get risky. Behaviors tend to come back and other even harder to fix behaviors can become problematic. I'd try really hard not to punish this beyond withholding the retrieve.
Just me. I'm no expert.
Last edited by DarrinGreene; 12-03-2013 at 06:35 PM.