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Thread: very vocal on cripple retrieves

  1. #21
    Junior Member jsav6's Avatar
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    lucky yall i would love for mine to only do this on cripple birds mine has so much drive not that i dont love the drive but the whining gets to me if she hears a gunshot it sets her off and she is ready to go, i guess i need to put mine around a lot more shots to get her where she will slow down on the whining.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrous2 View Post
    Ellie (BLF) just turned 1yr old last week. She has started getting really vocal the past 4 or 5 days on retrieves when the bird is cripple. Dead ducks she doesn't really get vocal. On some deep water 50-80 yard retrieves she may get a little vocal. But man she really gets loud on a long cripple retrieve!!! She has retrieve over 160 ducks so far this year. Her drive seems to increase with every hunt. Question is will she out grow this???
    Would be silly to give you a definate answer, can only pass on my own experiences- had one too that did the same thing.
    The more the cripple tried to escape, the more vocalization, (only in water). Ducks going under 10ft. before the dog got to it, and coming up 10yds. behind the dog. I didn't worry about the vocalization, because it was only in this situation that it happened- and the dog grew out of it as it became more seasoned.

    There's a silver lining to it.
    A crippled, smart Puddle duck with his wits about him can be useful-

    You can measure your dogs' perseverance
    Dawgs are like Savings Accounts-
    You only get out of 'em what you put into 'em.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Pines View Post
    I was hoping that this discussion would take off a little bit into some potentially interesting directions:

    • the powerful primary reinforcement of prey drive activities
    • association of behaviors - are all behaviors (eg, vocalization) associated with the chase behavior reinforced as powerfully in combination with the chase behavior? I would guess that they are.
    • extreme arousal - excitement vs. frustration; any difference in strategy?
    • vocalization - voluntary vs. involuntary (whether dog is conscious of vocalizing); training strategy and outcomes


    Also, questions for Wayne ...
    Did you really do nothing to discourage Rowdy from vocalizing during chase of cripple? If you did nothing to address it, why not? Vocalization behavior diminishing without any "training" intervention seems extremely unlikely to me given the powerfully reinforcing nature of prey drive activity. Chasing a live, moving cripple is the highest order of prey drive activity that I can think of.

    I don't have personal experience with this but am interested in hearing more from those who have successfully reduced vocalization during the chase. My inclination would be to back up to very low arousal stimulus, gradually adding arousal factors in an attempt to isolate and manage the vocalization behavior. I would possibly consider doing quite a bit of live bird work in a blind running context, as opposed to marking situations, so that I can liberally interject obedience into the routine to interrupt the chase, manage and cap the drive arousal.

    Jim
    Not Wayne, but would be real curious to know what you'd suggest as a correction or the re-enforcement of...what?

    Would it be a good idea to re-call a dog off a live bird early on in a chase that otherwise has decent manners afield the rest of the time? I'd much rather re-call the dog when it becomes very, (very) obvious that the bird has the upper hand in deep water, and the chase has dragged on for some time. At least that way the dog doesn't "give up" on it's own, after being "outsmarted" for 15 minutes of constant swimming and you don't lose a whole lot of confidence or interfere with any prey drive.

    The dog may even agree with you.


    This situation to me, is a whole lot different than perhaps a dog that gets vocal on land say, mid-way to a mark, or as it leaves the line.
    Dawgs are like Savings Accounts-
    You only get out of 'em what you put into 'em.

  4. #24
    Senior Member T-Pines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post
    Not Wayne, but would be real curious to know what you'd suggest as a correction or the re-enforcement of...what?
    I don't understand what you are asking. But apologies to Wayne for the phrasing of my question ... didn't mean to challenge his handling or assessment of his situation ... I'm trying to get an understanding of how the vocalization behavior that is closely paired with the chase behavior, which is so powerfully self-reinforcing, can dissipate on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post
    Would it be a good idea to re-call a dog off a live bird early on in a chase that otherwise has decent manners afield the rest of the time? I'd much rather re-call the dog when it becomes very, (very) obvious that the bird has the upper hand in deep water, and the chase has dragged on for some time. At least that way the dog doesn't "give up" on it's own, after being "outsmarted" for 15 minutes of constant swimming and you don't lose a whole lot of confidence or interfere with any prey drive.

    The dog may even agree with you.


    This situation to me, is a whole lot different than perhaps a dog that gets vocal on land say, mid-way to a mark, or as it leaves the line.
    I probably agree with you if we are talking about the first occurrence of a potentially unwanted behavior. There are certainly pros and cons to be considered to a corrective response. The most important decision is whether I put my dog into a situation where he may repeat (practice) the unwanted behavior. I have complete control over that choice without risking downside effects to confidence, perseverance or prey drive.

    Jim

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Pines View Post
    I don't understand what you are asking. But apologies to Wayne for the phrasing of my question ... didn't mean to challenge his handling or assessment of his situation ... I'm trying to get an understanding of how the vocalization behavior that is closely paired with the chase behavior, which is so powerfully self-reinforcing, can dissipate on its own.
    Guess what I'm asking is - that if it's such an isolated incident when the dog gets vocal, why mess with it. Would certainly agree that vocalization in one area could certainly breed itself in another, but if it hasn't, and doesn't, then I want to leave it alone.

    In that deep water situation with a young dog that I had, it was being more and more successful with more and more exposure that I believed to be the Rx when the pup stopped doing it. Really think that the dog "believed" that if he was vocal enough during the chase, the bird would stop evading him, Lol.
    In the end-
    The dog learned that it was his perseverance that made him successful.
    Dawgs are like Savings Accounts-
    You only get out of 'em what you put into 'em.

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