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Thread: Training Programmes? ...idle curiousity!

  1. #21
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    I think Force Fetch isn't used, because it isn't needed here? Our dogs are all bred with an enormous desire to pick things up, hold them and fetch them, and this is encouraged in a positive manner around the home. There is no need to go through a process of forcing them to hold/fetch something and making it into an action of pressure/fear? I've never had a lab that I have had to force or even encourage to hold/carry/fetch. They all just want to do that?
    L, now that you've gotten your answer to "programming," we need to convince you that FF is not "necessary" here either, but is applied/imparted to dogs that have the same desire to pick things up as yours, are encouraged in exactly the same "positive manner around the home" as yours, but are not subjected to force fetch to get a dog (or more likely a six-month-old pup) to retrieve out of fear or from pressure. To quote kennel maiden, "They all just want to do that!" But what they don't want to do - yet, because because we haven't taught them - is retrieve how we want them to, like 350-yard water blinds and triples at that distance or greater with retired birds.

    Force fetch ain't a necessity, and our dogs don't "need" it any more than yours do. But our field trial dogs usually get it to give them a foundation for all the advanced stuff that follows - that follows here but not over there...

    MG

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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    L, now that you've gotten your answer to "programming," we need to convince you that FF is not "necessary" here either, but is applied/imparted to dogs that have the same desire to pick things up as yours, are encouraged in exactly the same "positive manner around the home" as yours, but are not subjected to force fetch to get a dog (or more likely a six-month-old pup) to retrieve out of fear or from pressure. To quote kennel maiden, "They all just want to do that!" But what they don't want to do - yet, because because we haven't taught them - is retrieve how we want them to, like 350-yard water blinds and triples at that distance or greater with retired birds.

    Force fetch ain't a necessity, and our dogs don't "need" it any more than yours do. But our field trial dogs usually get it to give them a foundation for all the advanced stuff that follows - that follows here but not over there...

    MG
    But we manage 300 yd blinds without FF? I don't see how it gives them a basis for confidently running blinds? If you do your ground work, building thru memory marks, and proofing the dog in a variety of terrains you can get a dog running lines confidentially without pressurising it....

    anyway, horses for courses as I say.

  3. #23
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    But we manage 300 yd blinds without FF? I don't see how it gives them a basis for confidently running blinds? If you do your ground work, building thru memory marks, and proofing the dog in a variety of terrains you can get a dog running lines confidentially without pressurising it....

    anyway, horses for courses as I say.
    The medium of water and courses of water is the level that the UK have not trained for or have the requirement for (with one command) .That's the difference at that level (imo)
    Strange?, as we are an Island and full of water
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    I'm afraid I can't agree with you on that one!
    Obviously it depends on your definition of 'advanced', but I would consider our retrievers running at the International Gundog League Retriever Championships to be fairly 'advanced', and I don't think there is one amongst them that has been trained on an e-collar or force fetched.....
    I agree with both you and you might agree with Charles also if you allow me to add that he means "advanced N.American competetion retriever". Our competitions do not reward the same skills as do yours. In a nut shell; we want our dogs to prove the quality of their vision rather than their nose on marks. In these they must mark on a relatively tight line and show no characteristics of "nose" until they are inside the area of the fall. On blind retrieves we want them to run an almost laser like line under the complete control of the handler. They must ignore every aspect of the field save their ability to follow the handler's direction, they must ignore their nose and will be eliminated on a blind if they are unduly distracted by scent from off line. While our rule books may state that marking is of paramount importance, most competitions will reserve the ultimate marking test for those dogs who have proved themselves on their blind retrieves. This may help to explain why we use a collar; it enables us to force (however gently) our dogs at (sometimes) very great distance to stop and look to us for direction without fail and in spite of temptations to hunt on their own.

    It would appear from what I have read and had described to me, that your tests are less restrictive on the dogs' route to its marks and more rewarding of those dogs who show independent hunting ability to retrieve both marks and blinds. Your tests also appear to place as exacting and inflexible standards on line manners as we do on lines to and performance on blind retrieves, this seems to indicate that much of your training emphasis might be accomplished with a hunt lead and a quirt rather than an electric collar. Control at a distance is what our training programs are trying to accomplish and e-collars have been proven to be the most successful and humane (when properly introduced and used) tool to use.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    I think Force Fetch isn't used, because it isn't needed here? Our dogs are all bred with an enormous desire to pick things up, hold them and fetch them, and this is encouraged in a positive manner around the home. There is no need to go through a process of forcing them to hold/fetch something and making it into an action of pressure/fear? I've never had a lab that I have had to force or even encourage to hold/carry/fetch. They all just want to do that?
    Ah yes but there's a BIG difference between a dog that does what it wants and does what YOU want! Force fetch has nothing to do with making up for lack of drive in a well bred retriever. Yes, in some it makes that difference but not in most of the dogs we discuss on this forum. A well bred American/English/Chinese/Japanese/Russian retriever has the drive and ambition... They would probably fetch 99.9% of the time anyhow. If only the .1% wasn't grounds for instant elimination from the trial. But "force fetch" goes way beyond that in terms of it's affect on a dog's mindset as a working companion. We're not just trying to solve a .1% chance of failure.

    Just as a brief aside, this is why I hate the term "force fetch". We're not "Forcing" the dog to do anything. Imagine the mechanics of that mess? Ever had to hold down a scared 80 lb lab to put a catheter in? Four people for that one! You can't FORCE the dog to do anything. It's all but physically impossible.

    What you can do is re-enforce the command using negative re-enforcement strategies (look up what this really means vs. what you may think), in addition to the positive re-enforcement that you're already doing every time your dog gets to chase (retrieve) something. By employing all the quadrants of the operant conditioning model, we create reliability and enhance the leader/follower relationship between ourselves and the dog, respectively. We teach not only what's right and required to earn a reward, but what's wrong and grounds for discomfort. We remove a lot of the dog's thought process in terms of what reward has the most value at any given moment. This balance translates to better overall performance from obedience to long distance direction and control, regardless of the tools employed.

    And BTW if you've ever watched a bunch of good American Field Trial labs run they're work doesn't look "pressurized" one little bit. The good ones are very stylish and obviously enjoying their work. There's even a slot on the score sheet for "style", which is just that, the dog's obvious enjoyment of it's work. If you "pressurized" the dog to "force" it to do it's work, it's not going to look like it should. We see examples of that over here, but I don't believe we see it at the top echelons of competition. A dog that looks "forced" isn't appealing at all to most judges so probably isn't going very far.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 12-03-2013 at 06:03 PM.
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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    I don't think there is one amongst them that has been trained on an e-collar or force fetched.....
    I'd wager a bet you're wrong about that one. I doubt seriously there are that many dogs operating at that level without having compulsion applied at some point in the process. "Force fetch" may not be what it's called and it may not follow the same process but... I would bet you a fair sum of money that behind the scenes those dogs know what a heeling stick and a slip lead are all about.
    Darrin Greene

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    Senior Member John Lash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    The medium of water and courses of water is the level that the UK have not trained for or have the requirement for (with one command) .That's the difference at that level (imo)
    Strange?, as we are an Island and full of water
    As I see it that's most of it. Many dogs can do well on land but the field trial really starts with the water series.

    I know very little of British trials, just reading about them and the internet. Having said that "over here" each dog runs as much as possible the same test. All the dogs entered can be seen in the same light, under the same circumstances. So all the dogs are required to give a stellar performance or be dropped. If a dog "rises above" the others, to be competitive your dog also has to "rise." All age dogs are trained to be capable at everything as much as they possibly can.
    You have to get through 4 series to finish and even hope to place. Usually if your dog does something even a little wrong it's enough to be dropped.

    Since it's a competition many of the reasons a dog is dropped is of little consequence in hunting. If you are in a trial and have a couple big hunts, handle on a mark, disappear around a point or over a hill it's usually enough to be eliminated. Of course depending what everyone else does.
    John Lash

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  8. #28
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Oh and BTW to answer your question. If you have a dog that will reliably go when sent, fetch and deliver to hand, you can use any of the Carr based programs (Lardy/Smartworks etc.) to teach the skills. All the program does is outline the steps involved in a logical teaching progression. That part is not dependent at all on the use of the collar nor the "force fetching" process. You would simply skip those steps and do the drills in whatever order is called for.

    But.. whatyagonnado when he stops fetching?
    Darrin Greene

  9. #29
    Senior Member Bartona500's Avatar
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    Maiden,

    I train similarly to your methods over there, based on some of the "celebrity" dvd's and spending time with friends from over there. It seems that there is a large push on RTF for young trainers to be on a program, and I understand the reasoning. If you are doing collar conditioning and FF, you can't just hodgepodge that. There is a very structured, systematic approach to make sure you achieve success in your dog. If you do not follow the steps, the use of the collar may be unclear and, even worse, harmful to the dogs progress. As useful as a collar can be, they can be detrimental to a dog if used improperly. A solid program, particularly for a collar trained dog, is essential in allowing a trainer to track progression and not "skip" any essentials to a Carr based system.

    As far as your type training, these programs can be very helpful in giving you new ideas for drills and lessons to teach new skills or the same skills in a new way. I have solidified my "method" based on how I prefer to train a dog, but it is certainly much more organic than one of the dvd program's mentioned above. We have certain "goal's" in certain skill-sets, once we achieve those goals we move forward. As we progress, new skill sets are added. What used to be hodgepodge has become mostly systematic, but far less systematic than a program.
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    Senior Member Bartona500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Oh and BTW to answer your question. If you have a dog that will reliably go when sent, fetch and deliver to hand, you can use any of the Carr based programs (Lardy/Smartworks etc.) to teach the skills. All the program does is outline the steps involved in a logical teaching progression. That part is not dependent at all on the use of the collar nor the "force fetching" process. You would simply skip those steps and do the drills in whatever order is called for.

    But.. whatyagonnado when he stops fetching?
    That's exactly right, the first paragraph. As far as the question, I've not had that happen!
    -Barton Ramsey

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