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Thread: Training Programmes? ...idle curiousity!

  1. #71
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    Breck - thanks a million. Lots of great stuff to read there. In fact, at this rate I'll be doing more reading than training!!! (which is a good thing seeing as the weather is lousy). Really useful resources. Thank you.

    Just one question (well, a couple actually!) - on the flow diagram, top line "go/line/cast". What does that mean? Is that your basic sendaway? ie. go and fetch it/take a line from handler to retrieve? and what is a 'fetch' reach/extension, vs 'go/fetch'?

  2. #72
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Um, I don't know lol.
    Go As Sent on the LIne I indicate until I tell you otherwise. On a cast, follow direction I cast you until you get to bird or I tell you different. We do not refer to the send bit as a "cast" although is is sort of.
    Fetch Reach refers to a part of the Force Fetch process where you go from dog fetching dummy from your hand to fetching it off of the ground. Difficult transition for many dogs. Some trainers will hold one end of bumper off of the grond by throw rope so only one end touches ground to get dogs past this.
    Hopefully I got that right...
    You may gleen a bit more after having a chance to read the other docs. Much will be foreign terminolgy to you but you may sort much of it out.
    .
    Others better than me can probably write about the technical details more.
    Last edited by Breck; 12-05-2013 at 07:29 PM.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Even people on this side of the pond may have difficulty with John's writtings.
    If anyone cares to write a little "dictionary" list of what some of the terminology means in John's Dogs Hardwired chart, that would probably be helpful to some.
    .......
    "Darla" AFC Candlewoods Lil Smokin Tequila (2002-2013)(fondly remembered)
    "Smoke" Smokin Auggies Menace, QAA (2003- )(retired nut case, ask Rando)
    "Simba" Humewood Simba (1999-2014)(my 1st dog)

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    Per favore, non mi rompere i coglioni.
    Grazie




  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    Breck - thanks a million. Lots of great stuff to read there. In fact, at this rate I'll be doing more reading than training!!! (which is a good thing seeing as the weather is lousy). Really useful resources. Thank you.

    Just one question (well, a couple actually!) - on the flow diagram, top line "go/line/cast". What does that mean? Is that your basic sendaway? ie. go and fetch it/take a line from handler to retrieve? and what is a 'fetch' reach/extension, vs 'go/fetch'?
    Here is my interpretation of the diagram:

    The boxes on the top line seem to be subject areas, so to speak. To teach "go" "follow a line" "take directional casts" you follow the flow chart down. To teach fetch/delivery you follow that line down. The skill sets merge as one skill is needed to complete traininv of another.

    So, fetch/reach transitions to go/fetch. You teach the dog to fetch from your hand, extending the distance the dog must reach. You transition to fetch from the ground, extending the distance the dog must go to fetch. At some point you then incorperate the "return/here" skill, and the dog goes, fetches the object and returns.
    -=#David

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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBnumber1 View Post
    Here is my interpretation of the diagram:

    The boxes on the top line seem to be subject areas, so to speak. To teach "go" "follow a line" "take directional casts" you follow the flow chart down. To teach fetch/delivery you follow that line down. The skill sets merge as one skill is needed to complete traininv of another.

    So, fetch/reach transitions to go/fetch. You teach the dog to fetch from your hand, extending the distance the dog must reach. You transition to fetch from the ground, extending the distance the dog must go to fetch. At some point you then incorperate the "return/here" skill, and the dog goes, fetches the object and returns.
    Thanks, makes sense sort of. We don't do any of that teaching the dog to fetch from your hand or ground here. But we would look at tidying up delivery at some point later, if appropriate.

  6. #76
    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    We don't do any of that teaching the dog to fetch from your hand or ground here.
    Sum on we Brummies does!

    I sometimes backchain the fetch command starting from the hand and transitioning to the ground with young Springers that are reluctant retrievers in a sort of "taught retrieve" that includes commands for "hold" and "dead". It's an adaptation of FF as espoused by James B Spencer.

    In the last few years I've reversed it for really sticky cases using clicker; starting off a few yards away and then coming to hand and release. This takes advantage of the progressive learning aspect; Fido doesn't have to get it right or even nearly right, just make a wee improvement in each session.

    Eug

    PS, REF: JAMES B SPENCER "Hup! Training Flushing Spaniels the American Way".
    Last edited by Colonel Blimp; 12-06-2013 at 04:38 AM.
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  7. #77
    Senior Member Pas Bon's Avatar
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    I do wish there was a detailed sequential program out there that specifically covered non ecollar /non FF training. I have had good results with my hodgepodge method as well as using advice from Mr Robert Milner and the Wildrose DVD. However, I have seen some deficiencies in my training but I take full credit for that and attribute it to my own complacency. I have yet to have a refusal but 300 yarders with a strong tail wind have shown to be problematic as my 4 y/o relies heavily on his own nose and less on my instruction at times. But I will say he has impeccable blind manners and has picked up close to 100 birds this season saving me many many steps in the mucky marsh!

  8. #78
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    I do wish there was a detailed sequential program out there that specifically covered non ecollar /non FF training.
    PB, "Training the Sporting Dog" published by the American Hunting Dog Club is an super presentation of non collar training, with an excellent sequential layout, stepwise progress and lots of self checking and result recording for the trainer. They do use FF but it isn't a central part of the deal. There is a section on aggressive dogs that I find a bit fanciful, but the rest is so very good that I forgive them Highly recommended.

    Eug
    Last edited by Colonel Blimp; 12-06-2013 at 11:22 AM.
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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    PB, "Training the Sporting Dog" published by the American Hunting Dog Club is an super presentation of non collar training, with an excellent sequential layout, stepwise progress and lots of self checking and result recording for the trainer. They do use FF but it isn't a central part of the deal. There is a section on aggressive dogs that I find a bit fanciful, but the rest is so very good that I forgive them Highly recommended.

    Eug

    Thank You Sir!

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    Kennel maiden explained to me in a PM that the electric collar is illegal in much of the UK and I suppose that for similar reasons there is huge opprobrium heaped upon anyone who uses the collar or even speaks the "e-word" in polite company in that part of the world. This all seems really silly to an American for two reasons.

    First (and if you think about it, we could probably all agree on this one): The way the e-collar is used today (and I'm thinking of Hillman's system) the stimulation is almost imperceptible. That being the case, there is scant difference between the tactile buzz of the e-collar and the auditory sound of a clicker or even the verbal "atta dog". The advantage of the collar over a clicker and an "atta boy" is that at a distance, the timing of the stimulation is instantaneous and all things auditory are delayed sufficiently to distort their usefulness beyond even 50 yards/meters or so. In fact, poor timing on an auditory stimulus can screw the dog up. It's not neutral, it's detrimental.

    Second (and this one will probably be divisive and I apologize in advance) making something like this illegal is so irritating for Americans. The "nanny-state-ism" that punishes the whole group for the stupidity of the minority of idiots that abuse something or just have rotten manners is just... wrong. Abusing dogs is evil. Make that illegal and enforce it vigorously. The e-collar is a tool. Nothing more or less.

    (I've been in some serious pain today that renders me cranky and intolerant, and I've taken an opiate which disables most of my edit function. So please forgive if I've offended. I'm really not a butt-head ordinarily.)

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