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Thread: Training Programmes? ...idle curiousity!

  1. #11
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    Daren - thanks for your PM. I've seen that flow chart. I can't seem to reply to you or new message you at all for some reason?

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    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Hmm the idea of programs is relatively new, and I hazard to say any professional trainer and most knowledgeable amateurs over here, has his own hodgepodge of methods incorporating a bit of this a bit of that; no-one uses everything out of every program. They use what works for their dog. Now can a great retriever be made without an e-collar? Of course it can but it's harder and takes longer. Most of us stopped riding horses and bought cars at some point . Can a dog be a great retriever without FF, maybe but I'd hazard to say everyone teaches their dog that fetch means pick this up and hold it; then enforces the command (which without all the bells and whistles is forcing a fetch) . Rex Carr was one of the first to teach others a method, most later trainers who developed programs used his teaching as they learned from him. To find the non-e-collar based methods you have to go back further, and I don't know of any that were actually written down, verses being passed from trainer to trainer (Most trainers I know HATE writing things down). The e-collar took over, and while some trainers still know those methods, I don't think they get passed on or utilized as widely anymore...
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 12-03-2013 at 01:28 PM.
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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    Hmm the idea of programs is relatively new, and I hazard to say any professional trainer and most knowledgeable amateurs over here, has his own hodgepodge of methods incorporating a bit of this a bit of that; no-one uses everything out of every program. They use what works for their dog. Now can a great retriever be made without an e-collar? Of course it can but it's harder and takes longer. Most of us stopped riding horses and bought cars at some point . Can a dog be a great retriever without FF, maybe but I'd hazard to say everyone teaches their dog that fetch means pick this up and hold it; then enforces the command (which without all the bells and whistles is forcing a fetch) . Rex Carr was one of the first to teach others a method, most later trainer developed programs from his teaching as they learned it from him. To find the non-e-collar based methods you have to go back further, and I don't know of any that were actually written down, verses being passed from trainer to trainer (Most trainers I know HATE writing things down). The e-collar took over, and while some trainers still know those methods, I don't think they get passed on or utilized as widely anymore.
    I started with my first dog in 1979, I didn't know anybody, had never heard of a pro trainer and had no idea how to train my dog, so I went to my local library and looked up any books they had on the subject. I found two, James Lamb Free's book and Richard Wolter's Water Dog. I hate to admit it now, but Wolter's book worked fine for what I needed and gave me more insight into retrievers than I had before. I had moved to Montana when I got my next dog, so had a few more resources, but even though I trained with a good amateur and later a pro, we didn't use the word "program", I just trained day by day doing what these guys said to do. The reality is that I was following a program, we just didn't call it that. I didn't use that word until the Lardy video tapes came out, after that there was more structure in our training. Now you have competing programs and variations of programs, kind of like the West Coast offense coaching tree. Everybody wants to now what program you are following.

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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    I have a silly question for the UK folk. OK can't use the collar. I get it, but why can we not "force fetch" (I hate the term because it's really incorrect) a dog? There are multiple methods and tools that could be put to use to get the same result. Might take a tad longer but would produce reliable results.
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    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I have a silly question for the UK folk. OK can't use the collar. I get it, but why can we not "force fetch" (I hate the term because it's really incorrect) a dog? There are multiple methods and tools that could be put to use to get the same result. Might take a tad longer but would produce reliable results.
    I wonder this as well, the e-collar is only used in the last proofing portion of FF, and that is more about transitioning from a close up (physical-manual) pressure to collar pressure (for later e-collar use). It doesn't have anything to do with producing a reliable retrieve it's just another method to enforce the command. Fetch
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    Senior Member Charles C.'s Avatar
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    Training an advanced retriever without an ecollar is sort of like hunting ducks with a long bow. It's possible, but has many limitations and includes frequent failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I have a silly question for the UK folk. OK can't use the collar. I get it, but why can we not "force fetch" (I hate the term because it's really incorrect) a dog? There are multiple methods and tools that could be put to use to get the same result. Might take a tad longer but would produce reliable results.
    I think Force Fetch isn't used, because it isn't needed here? Our dogs are all bred with an enormous desire to pick things up, hold them and fetch them, and this is encouraged in a positive manner around the home. There is no need to go through a process of forcing them to hold/fetch something and making it into an action of pressure/fear? I've never had a lab that I have had to force or even encourage to hold/carry/fetch. They all just want to do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles C. View Post
    Training an advanced retriever without an ecollar is sort of like hunting ducks with a long bow. It's possible, but has many limitations and includes frequent failure.
    I'm afraid I can't agree with you on that one!
    Obviously it depends on your definition of 'advanced', but I would consider our retrievers running at the International Gundog League Retriever Championships to be fairly 'advanced', and I don't think there is one amongst them that has been trained on an e-collar or force fetched.....

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    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    I'm afraid I can't agree with you on that one!
    Obviously it depends on your definition of 'advanced', but I would consider our retrievers running at the International Gundog League Retriever Championships to be fairly 'advanced', and I don't think there is one amongst them that has been trained on an e-collar or force fetched.....
    Kennel Maiden This sounds like thread is getting into whether it is better to use the collar or not. You OP is

    Without diverging into picking through the whys and wherefores of what methods are 'better', can anyone tell me is there a 'programme' which doesn't involve the use of an electric collar, or force fetch? If there isn't, there isn't. But just wondered if there was.


    You can use Lardy's and other programs without using the collar. You could use attrition instead of collar pressure. You could walk out and have a discussion with your dog. You could do any number of drills where pressure is not needed to correct issues. These are in Lardy's DVD and others. I find some of these ideas and others I could list useful for training. I am certain you have your methods! JMO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    Kennel Maiden This sounds like thread is getting into whether it is better to use the collar or not. You OP is

    Without diverging into picking through the whys and wherefores of what methods are 'better', can anyone tell me is there a 'programme' which doesn't involve the use of an electric collar, or force fetch? If there isn't, there isn't. But just wondered if there was.


    You can use Lardy's and other programs without using the collar. You could use attrition instead of collar pressure. You could walk out and have a discussion with your dog. You could do any number of drills where pressure is not needed to correct issues. These are in Lardy's DVD and others. I find some of these ideas and others I could list useful for training. I am certain you have your methods! JMO
    Mary - I totally agree, thanks! Our methods are different. They just are. It's perfectly possible to train to the highest level using either method. It is. We've both proved that.

    I have my answer thanks everyone - there isn't a program per se, but you could adapt one.

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