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Force Fetch Help

9K views 68 replies 26 participants last post by  Wayne Nutt 
#1 ·
As some of you know my 1 year old lab just got back form the trainer. He went through a month of FF. He's on the table with the collar right now. As I was watching my trainer the last day he was there I noticed my dog locking up when he'd say fetch, and he'd have to say multiple times sometimes to get him to reach for it. My trainer didn't say anything about it. I had my first session with him yesterday and he did great. Today he was locking up on me or going really slow. I have my collar on 2 and I tried to up it to 3 and it just made it worse. I did just give up on the session I ended on him reaching for it a couple of times.

My question for you guys is this:

Should I keep using the collar or go back to ear pinch? How should I go about progressing or fixing this.

Should I start doing 2 sessions a day even though my trainer was only doing 1?

I'd appreciate some help.

Thanks!
 
#2 ·
I'd call your trainer and ask some pointed questions. If he went through a month of FF with a "professional trainer" and is "locking up" when he said "FETCH"; then I would question why the trainer ever moved on from ear pinch and was now using the collar in a presumed Collar fetch scenario.

If that dog is balking or locking up on fetch command, then he probably didn't fully understand the command and ear pinch pressure; and how to deal with it. If that is so he certainly shouldn't have been moved on to collar pressure IMHO
 
#65 ·
i'd call your trainer and ask some pointed questions. If he went through a month of ff with a "professional trainer" and is "locking up" when he said "fetch"; then i would question why the trainer ever moved on from ear pinch and was now using the collar in a presumed collar fetch scenario.

If that dog is balking or locking up on fetch command, then he probably didn't fully understand the command and ear pinch pressure; and how to deal with it. If that is so he certainly shouldn't have been moved on to collar pressure imho
amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#3 ·
I think I'd send him back to finish FF.
 
#4 ·
On second thought, I might ask for some money back and find a different trainer.
 
#53 · (Edited)
On second thought, I might ask for some money back and find a different trainer.
That was my first thought but it came in the form of "what idiot gave the guy his dog back at this stage of training?"

I get it now that I read the OP comment about job loss...

That sucks :(

So a recommendation would be to go back to the very beginning. Brush up some obedience as he settles back in to the home situation then start with teaching hold and do the whole process yourself from start to finish. No race to get things done but rather a really good reason to take your time and make sure everything is done correctly.

This seems like a really BAD time to attempt a transition.
 
#5 ·
Should you keep using the e-collar? I wouldn't. Force fetch is a pressure conditioning process, and this dog does not sound like one that has a clear picture of how to turn off pressure through compliance. If you don't have solid responses with ear pinch, the e-collar has at least equal potential to make this worse.

How long? Until it's right and reliable. It sounds like your dog needs a trainer who relates to him better, and can read him more effectively. That MAY be you!

For most dogs, in most cases, 2 sessions per day are optimal. Read the dog. Feel free to email me if you want to discuss this in greater detail. Let me know what part of the country you're in and I may know someone who can coach you effectively. rushcreekpress@aol.com

Evan
 
#7 · (Edited)
Should you keep using the e-collar? I wouldn't. Force fetch is a pressure conditioning process, and this dog does not sound like one that has a clear picture of how to turn off pressure through compliance. If you don't have solid responses with ear pinch, the e-collar has at least equal potential to make this worse.

How long? Until it's right and reliable. It sounds like your dog needs a trainer who relates to him better, and can read him more effectively. That MAY be you!

For most dogs, in most cases, 2 sessions per day are optimal. Read the dog. Feel free to email me if you want to discuss this in greater detail. Let me know what part of the country you're in and I may know someone who can coach you effectively. rushcreekpress@aol.com

Evan
I really appreciate it! I emailed you!
 
#6 ·
Here is my recent experience (following Smartworks). Mine clammed up with the e-collar too. But then I slowed down and ear pinched and e-collared(on continual) at the same time. As i worked my way up the e-collar pressure the dog caught on and got very solid on fetch and hold. However, I never made him reach very far (6 -8 inches maybe) when e-collar FFing - except of course when we took the bumper to the ground and which time I switched to nicks with the collar.
 
#8 ·
See, that's what I've been told to do! I was just wanting to get some opinions. He's been on nick though. Would switching to continuous confuse him or mess him up? I've been making him reach pretty far like on the table and off the side of the table (maybe it's to far, I'm not sure.)
 
#11 ·
I want to know why a pro didn't have this done in a month.
 
#18 ·
Morph, Where are you located? Try to get with a local retriever club and some of the more knowledgeable people to get some hands on help.
just a small hijack since PM isn't working:
Hey Paul,ready to go to the dark side? I bred Beanie to Nike.Tell Plesko too. :)

Jeff
 
#19 ·
Nike the water spaniel? that should make for some interesting pups..
 
#22 ·
It may be worth your while to start over again using a program step by step.Lardy, Smart Works, Farmer/Ayecock, etc.That way you can fill in any holes there may be.
 
#25 ·
Quick update: We did our second session today and I tightened his collar a little bit and left it on 2. We were outside on my tailgate, which is a different spot then what we were using. He seemed to do great. Every single time I put the bumper on the tailgate all the way across from him and said FETCH he would pick it up no problem. Then I was holding it up at his chest level across from him saying FETCH and sometimes he would reach and get it and sometimes he would reach towards it and act like he didn't see it then I'd have to put it in front of him and he'd get it. He didn't lock up any at all. I can usually only nick him like once or twice because he gets the bumper so quick.

So, should I keep doing what I'm doing?
 
#26 ·
To answer your question, yes.You still have holes if he's not consistant. When you build a structure you need the complete foundation don't you? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.
Build, teach, train.Then he'll understand the whole picture.

Jeff
 
#28 ·
You keep asking "what if".You have gotten answers from people who have been at this game for a long time,written programs. This is why most of those with the knowledge to answer questions don't.Keep flying blind.I am out of this.
I wish your dog success.
Later and out.
 
#29 ·
As some of you know my 1 year old lab just got back form the trainer. He went through a month of FF. He's on the table with the collar right now. As I was watching my trainer the last day he was there I noticed my dog locking up when he'd say fetch, and he'd have to say multiple times sometimes to get him to reach for it. My trainer didn't say anything about it. I had my first session with him yesterday and he did great. Today he was locking up on me or going really slow. I have my collar on 2 and I tried to up it to 3 and it just made it worse. I did just give up on the session I ended on him reaching for it a couple of times.

My question for you guys is this:

Should I keep using the collar or go back to ear pinch? How should I go about progressing or fixing this.

Should I start doing 2 sessions a day even though my trainer was only doing 1?

I'd appreciate some help.
Are you saying the dog was at the trainers for a total of 1 month.? And you only sent him out for FFing
Pete

Pete
 
#33 ·
by the way, bad idea to do any training at all on a truck tailgate. Good way to end up with a broken leg.
 
#34 ·
Lots of unanswered questions before we throw the trainer under the bus.
 
#43 ·
so he will pick it up off the ground but wont reach for it when you hold it in front? Start over from the beginning. Start with hold. Get a program and follow it! To the T! Then you can find out what the dog understands and what he don't understand. Its not a race. If it takes you two months then it takes you two months. Read the dog. If your not sure, find some help. This is the most important piece in the puzzle. Get it right or pay the price down the road.
 
#47 ·
With all due respect, happy your full of donkey dung. I've ff hundreds of dogs and to pull the the dog at 4 weeks is gonna be a train wreck. He took the dog home too soon. I'd bet money the trainer would agree. If you say you can do it quicker, your gonna have holes. Bottom line...do it right or go home...

/Paul
 
#49 ·
I completely agree and it's possible scenario he pulled the dog in the middle. However, based upon his description, his dog isn't even reaching for the fetch. In your hundreds of dogs, after a month how often in you program is the dog not reaching and clamping up with the application of pressure after 30 days?
 
#48 ·
Here is a ff video. This is his first ff session. First you have to get him to fetch the bumper immediately in front of his face. Quit putting the bumper on the ground (or table or tailgate) until he is really going for it immediately in front of his mouth. When he won't grab immediately in front of him but will on the ground is probably his retrieving instinct kicking in. So stop doing this. Work your way up to extending the distance away from him.
Again put the ecollar away. From what I have read this is based on you being inexperienced and not having a program to follow.

I really think a $150-200 investment in a training program would best serve you. If you can't afford that, there are lots of videos available on RTF on ff. You can search Hank (by Pirate) and under my name to find some of them. Also there are a bunch of videos on Youtube. I also believe Evan Graham has a bunch of demo videos available on his website.


http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...irate)-first-ff-session&highlight=Force+fetch
 
#50 ·
Did the dog start ff on day 1 at the trainers?
 
#51 ·
[QUOTEDid the dog start ff on day 1 at the trainers?][/QUOTE]

Trainers who do this skip the "trust" factor and go straight into the respect factor. This can cause all kinds of problems.

If your going to "properly train a dog humanely trust should be established first and the dog needs to get used to his new surroundings.
Pete
 
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