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Thread: Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post
    RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH. Know the dogs you breed to and if you don't know them, ask these questions to the owner, trainer, and competitors.

    I keep notes in my head about all of these traits. I want to know the sire inside and out!! Not just a paper pedigree.....

    If the dog has not been competitive its whole life ask why. What physical problems presented themselves to end their careers early or create gaps in their careers? Realign your priorities. What makes a great dog????

    Performance
    Trainablility
    Disposition
    Conformation
    Health Clearances
    Longevity
    Reproduction
    Knee problems
    Shoulder problems
    Elbow problems
    Hip problems
    Nose
    Thyroid
    Training attitude
    attitude toward other dogs
    looks!
    EIC and CNM clearances are the LEAST of my worries!!

    What you want is a complete package......NOT what it looks like on paper. There is more to it than that. I could sell pups all day long on paper pedigrees. That is not my goal. Satisfied dog owners, are!!
    Why do you not consider the Coefficient of Inbreeding and it's impact ... ?

    john

    Parent/child 0.500000000
    Grandparent/grandchild 0.250000000
    Siblings 0.250000000
    Great-grandparent/great-grandchild 0.125000000
    Half-siblings 0.125000000
    Aunt/nephew, Uncle/niece 0.125000000
    Double first cousins 0.125000000
    First cousins 0.062500000
    First cousins once removed 0.031250000
    First cousins twice removed 0.015625000
    Second cousins 0.015625000
    Second cousins once removed 0.007812500
    Second cousins twice removed 0.003906250
    Third cousins 0.003906250
    Third cousins once removed 0.001953125
    Fourth cousins 0.000976563
    Last edited by john fallon; 12-11-2013 at 09:17 PM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Bromley View Post
    Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact on the breed for the future of Field Trials and Hunt Tests? Over the past few years several people stated they felt the ignorance regarding EIC carrier status was getting better. In my experience, I feel it is getting much worse. I am grateful there is a test for CNM and EIC to prevent affecteds. Since the CNM and EIC tests came out, many outstanding studs being used and starting to show promise of being good producers came to a screeching halt for breeding. Many top performers are hardly being bred simply because of carrier status… I am one of the few breeders who breed clear females to carrier studs. Simple reason, I want to produce quality, not catering to the ignorant! I fear too many breeders are not doing their homework and settling on convenience. The majority of the best performers and producers are carriers. If we are eliminating our best performers and producers we are not improving the breed!

    I was just having this conversation with a buddy that's going to breed his AA-Q bitch who is concerned about the whole clear to carrier deal and my first question was who is your target buyer, and what is your breeding purpose? FT dogs, HT dogs, Gun dogs, etc. When you get down to brass tax FT's have one major purpose....breeding! Of course that's not all we enjoy of the game but its one of the major driving forces of the game. I personally feel the HT breeders are the most concerned with breeding clear/clear. You don't have a pedigree that says NFC x FC AFC. I once made the analogy that EiC/CNM was no different than color factoring when matching potential studs to a bitch, I still feel its very similar. AAnd there are prominent field trialers that only buy from the carrier bloodlines because it took 100+ years to produce the field trial Labrador of today and now were going to eliminate some of the best stock because of a silly thing we can breed around? I don't get it myself and don't think many field trialers pass up carrier litters if it's the breeding they want, especially if the bitch has letters infront of her name
    "Women are like labradors...,they all have their quarks."~Phil Robertson

  3. #43
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Why do you not consider the Coefficient of Inbreeding and it's impact ... ?

    john

    Parent/child 0.500000000
    Grandparent/grandchild 0.250000000
    Siblings 0.250000000
    Great-grandparent/great-grandchild 0.125000000
    Half-siblings 0.125000000
    Aunt/nephew, Uncle/niece 0.125000000
    Double first cousins 0.125000000
    First cousins 0.062500000
    First cousins once removed 0.031250000
    First cousins twice removed 0.015625000
    Second cousins 0.015625000
    Second cousins once removed 0.007812500
    Second cousins twice removed 0.003906250
    Third cousins 0.003906250
    Third cousins once removed 0.001953125
    Fourth cousins 0.000976563
    Good question, John!

    There are approximately 250 genetic diseases in dogs. The majority of these diseases have NO genetic test available.

    Many breeders are now basing their breeding programs on ONE genetic test, and I see that as a very disturbing trend (I'll tell you why in a minute). While it is enormously fortunate to have the test, we can't simply 'remove' half of the current stud population and continue to have a healthy breed.

    While searching for a stud dog through the high point field trial dog list, I quickly became aware that at least half of those dogs are EIC 'carriers'. If the 'Popular Sire' list had 50 potential stud dogs, it now has only 25 which are EIC clear. By eliminating the carriers we have doubled our chances for the new 'Popular Sire' to occur more frequently in our pedigrees. This will ultimately increase the coefficient of inbreeding very quickly in our breed which is a dangerous trend, and we may find ourselves quickly walking on thin ice.

    Why are high COIs considered a problem?Two reasons:
    1. Inbreeding will help cement ‘good’ traits but there’s a danger of it also cementing bad ones. In particular, it can cause the rapid build up of disease genes in a population.
    2. Even if a breed of dog is lucky enough to be free of serious genetic disorders, inbreeding is likely to affect our dogs in more subtle, but no less serious, ways.
    These include smaller litter sizes, less vigorous/viable puppies, fertility problems and weakened immune systems. These effects have been very well documented in other species and are known as inbreeding depression. Farmers, who used to breed livestock in much the same way as we still breed dogs, have now changed the way that they breed their animals. In fact farmers so recognise the benefit of hybrid vigour that much of the meat we eat, milk we drink and eggs we boil are from crossbreeds. That’s because the yield is likely to be more/healthier/disease resistant than that from purebred stock.
    A study of Standard Poodles discovered that dogs with a COI of less than 6.25% lived on average four years longer than those with COIs over 25%.
    If you want to read more on this subject, see http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/a-beginners-guide-to-coi/

    A wonderful service the UK Kennel Club is providing for their dogs are the following:

    Mate Select Services
    Health Test Results Finder
    Calculation of an individual dog’s inbreeding coefficient (COI)
    Current inbreeding coefficient for a breed
    Prediction of the inbreeding coefficients of puppies from a hypothetical mating

    See http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/serv...t/Default.aspx for additional info.


    They report the current coefficient of inbreeding for the Labrador Retrievers to be 6.4%

    Very interesting, and here is why they provide this service,

    "Moving forward we need to look at ways to manage the genetic diversity in the dog population to try and prevent breeds from becoming genetically homogenous. One way of achieving this will be to ensure there is a greater number of individual dogs contributing to the genetic population."

  4. #44
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    Thank you Tammy!!!

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post
    Good question, John!

    There are approximately 250 genetic diseases in dogs. The majority of these diseases have NO genetic test available.

    Many breeders are now basing their breeding programs on ONE genetic test, and I see that as a very disturbing trend (I'll tell you why in a minute). While it is enormously fortunate to have the test, we can't simply 'remove' half of the current stud population and continue to have a healthy breed.

    While searching for a stud dog through the high point field trial dog list, I quickly became aware that at least half of those dogs are EIC 'carriers'. If the 'Popular Sire' list had 50 potential stud dogs, it now has only 25 which are EIC clear. By eliminating the carriers we have doubled our chances for the new 'Popular Sire' to occur more frequently in our pedigrees. This will ultimately increase the coefficient of inbreeding very quickly in our breed which is a dangerous trend, and we may find ourselves quickly walking on thin ice.



    If you want to read more on this subject, see http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/a-beginners-guide-to-coi/

    A wonderful service the UK Kennel Club is providing for their dogs are the following:

    Mate Select Services
    Health Test Results Finder
    Calculation of an individual dog’s inbreeding coefficient (COI)
    Current inbreeding coefficient for a breed
    Prediction of the inbreeding coefficients of puppies from a hypothetical mating

    See http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/serv...t/Default.aspx for additional info.


    They report the current coefficient of inbreeding for the Labrador Retrievers to be 6.4%

    Very interesting, and here is why they provide this service,

    "Moving forward we need to look at ways to manage the genetic diversity in the dog population to try and prevent breeds from becoming genetically homogenous. One way of achieving this will be to ensure there is a greater number of individual dogs contributing to the genetic population."
    To my way of thinking, the popular sire syndrome being diluted by 25 EIC carriers is not the viable solution we need.....

    Yes,all reputable studies conclude linebreeding for "whatever" ,(prowess in the field included), to be a potential health problem for the breed .
    As you say the solution is expanding the gene pool.
    I am sure you are aware that within a breed, or subset of that breed the ideal EFFECTIVE SIRE / breeding bitch ratio is 1 to 4.
    Effective being the opperative word

    BTW I am suspect of a 6.4% COI in the American field trial breed Labrador Retriever......our subset of the breed.

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 12-12-2013 at 07:17 PM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  6. #46
    Senior Member Jim Stevenson's Avatar
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    What about breeding carrier to carrier?

    If you sell/give the affecteds to people who strictly want pets and are looking for a good companion?

    I've only seen 2 affected dogs, that I'm aware of, in my life. One is an AFC and the other is a SH. They both looked very pleased to be alive and generally acted as other dogs who I know to be carriers and clear.

  7. #47
    Senior Member roseberry's Avatar
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    almost two years ago i had a choice of two pups from a very nice nafc x fc litter. the breeder told me one of the pups was a cnm carrier and the other was clear. i asked the breeder not to tell me which was which until i had selected my puppy. i chose the carrier pup. i own a very talented young dog that has a bright future. i wouldn't trade him for anything......i would sell him to a good ft home though if anyone is interested!
    john mccallie

  8. #48
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copenhawgen View Post
    What about breeding carrier to carrier?

    If you sell/give the affecteds to people who strictly want pets and are looking for a good companion?

    I've only seen 2 affected dogs, that I'm aware of, in my life. One is an AFC and the other is a SH. They both looked very pleased to be alive and generally acted as other dogs who I know to be carriers and clear.
    You have apparently only seen 2 mildly affected, I have seen quite a few more severely affected, if you had seen what I have seen you would never consider the option of producing affected dogs.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    if you had seen what I have seen you would never consider the option of producing affected dogs.
    Got a good friend we train with that has a really talented affected dog. and your are RIGHT ON. Don't want to see any dogs go through what he does.
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  10. #50
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    Nice thread glad I'm not the only one who wants to breed good Dogs,clear or carrier

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