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Thread: Will the EIC ignorance have a major negative impact?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfront View Post
    Nice thread glad I'm not the only one who wants to breed good Dogs,clear or carrier

    What you are saying here is unclear to me, perhaps you would elaborate and define good .....?

    john
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    What you are saying here is unclear to me, perhaps you would elaborate and define good .....?

    john



    Just look at your signature line.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    On a separate note, I know a dog that was tested soon after the test became available and the owner was given results indicating that the dog was affected. They continued to train her and title her in hunt tests and she never had an episode. So last year when they were testing a group of dogs, on a whim the owner re-tested her and the results came back "carrier". When they called about it, they found out that the original test results showed that she was a carrier, but that a "transcription error" had occurred and they got the "affected" results. So if you have an asymptomatic affected dog, you my want to retest just to make sure that it wasn't a screw-up at the university. I hope that they went back and double-checked all the results after that incident to verify that everyone got the correct results, but I have no reason to believe that they did. This situation sure diminished my faith in the process. Can I be sure that my clears are really clear?
    Matt McKenzie

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  4. #54
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    One last thought before I get back to raising a litter of puppies......clear and carriers of which I am having no problem selling carriers.

    I am in NO WAY suggesting that we breed carrier to carrier. It is too easy to find a clear to breed to instead. But when 46.2% (see U of Minn numbers below) of our current Labrador Retriever population are carriers/affecteds, we cannot do the breed a disservice by removing HALF of the breeding population just because of one mutation in one of their 20,000 chromosomes.

    Statement by Univ. of Minn on their website describing EIC, "EIC appears to be a genetically simple trait that is due to a mutation in just one of the approximately 20,000 genes present in a dog’s genome."

    RE: http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/c...gene/home.html

    LABRADOR RETRIEVERS TESTED BY UNIV. OF MINN.
    16478 Clear 11888 Carrier 2226 Affected 30592 Total 53.9% Clear 38.9% Carrier 7.3% Affected

    http://www.vdl.umn.edu/prod/groups/c...set_403528.pdf


    Again, do your RESEARCH. EIC is just a very small (1 in 20,000) part of the breeding equation.

    If choose to breed your dog, please breed it because it BETTERS the breed, not your pocket book. Don't breed just because you can. If you choose your bitch and sire lines carefully and thoughtfully to better the overall breed, you will have no problems selling carriers.

  5. #55
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    To my way of thinking, the popular sire syndrome being diluted by 25 EIC carriers is not the viable solution we need.....

    Yes,all reputable studies conclude linebreeding for "whatever" ,(prowess in the field included), to be a potential health problem for the breed .
    As you say the solution is expanding the gene pool.
    I am sure you are aware that within a breed, or subset of that breed the ideal EFFECTIVE SIRE / breeding bitch ratio is 1 to 4.
    Effective being the opperative word

    BTW I am suspect of a 6.4% COI in the American field trial breed Labrador Retriever......our subset of the breed.

    john
    Well, John, you are coercing me to do some research which can be dangerous!

    Here is the scary thing I found, and you are right. We are almost double that of the UK COI of 6.4%. Not only are we double, but the Labrador Retriever has a HIGHER COI than the GOLDEN RETRIEVERS!

    Just think where we will be when we breed only EIC Clears. My theory is double the 11.04% to 22.08%, but I'm not a mathematician.

    According to K9DATA:

    Golden Retrievers
    355063 Golden Retrievers in database.
    Average 10-generation Coefficient of Inbreeding is 9.58%.


    Labrador Retrievers
    61681 Labrador Retrievers in database.
    Average 10-generation Coefficient of Inbreeding is 11.04%.

    http://www.k9data.com/dbstats.asp

  6. #56
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copenhawgen View Post
    What about breeding carrier to carrier?

    .
    If you ever seen a CNM affected pup one not question why this should not be done, If you had ever had to deal with a even a mild EIC collapse, one would not question why this should not be done. We breed dogs with great instinct and desire, it is unfortunate when all that ends up in a body that can't handle the job the dog was bred for. We have a test now, labs are the largest breeds there is, there is always a different choice stud to get the same lines, looks, whatever; and produce puppies unaffected by one of the few diseases that breeders can actually control.

    Now I would consider breeding a Affected dog to a Clear and produce all carriers; however it's not something I would do lightly and would have to be a really superior affected dog.

    Another question and (I'm sort've on the fence) what do people feel about producing double carriers. I have a female that is EIC clear CNM carrier, thus there should be no issue in breeding her to a EIC carrier male. However I might produce double carriers EIC carrier & CNM carrier (healthy puppies), but double stigmata. Thus far we've bred one litter to a clear/clear male; however there are only a few of those(who everyone is breeding to) and I'd love to cross in a under used male, but I also feel; while not discounting superior dogs that happen to be carriers; we should be pushing the breed toward more clear if we can.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 12-13-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Cedarswamp's Avatar
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    I agree with Ed. I had one I kept as a "pet" after he started collapsing. He was an escape artist. Long story short, even though we tried to "manage" it, he got out of his kennel, and kennel yard. When he drug himself back to the yard, he was in an episode. Unfortunately, that was also his last episode...he died from it. My husband has also seen others die from it...not a pretty sight.

    I am also one that had a "non-symptomatic affected". Since EIC results are now required for CHIC, I had his daughter tested. Shocked was very mild to my reaction of her result of "clear" since I "knew" she would come back a carrier. I did call to question her sire's results when I got them since he was 8-9 at the time, a MH and hunted heavily. Whoever answered the phone said "it's correct". Needless to say, when I got her clear result, I asked to speak to Dr. Minor. She first asked about possible other sire, which there were no other males at either house at time of conception, so she pulled the sire's results which were transposed incorrectly and was definitely only a carrier. She apologized profusely and had it corrected on OFA as well. When I explained that I had called at receiving the first results, she said she wished they had given it a look then. I imagine that whoever was answering the phone in the beginning was fielding a lot of calls that were "shocked" by the results or in disbelief that they could have a "carrier" since everyone was "horrified" about carrier status in the beginning. SO moral of the story, don't do "by parentage", always test ALL dogs that are being bred.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Cedarswamp's Avatar
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    And agreed, NEVER risk a CNM affected dog either...once you've seen one, you will never forget it! It never has "normal" moments!
    High Tess JH
    Cedar Swamp's Linden JH
    Cedar Swamp's Cuttin a Rug
    Cedar Swamp's Holy Terror JH (3 SH passes)
    Blackfoot's Mr Independence at Cedar Swamp JH
    Cedar Swamp's Angel in Disguise
    Cedar Swamp's Test Pilot
    Cedar Swamp's Bonanza
    Cedar Swamp's Twisted Sister

    Others have also graced our hearts...gone not forgotten.
    RC Buckshot of Seven Hickories MH
    Ceader Swamp's Deuces Wild SH
    Fallen Timber's Second Chance MH
    Ceader Swamp's Mac Millett SH
    and several others...

  9. #59
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    I own a Hrch carrier male who is a great marker runs nice blinds and a awesome hunting dog. That's a good dog isn't it

  10. #60
    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfront View Post
    I own a Hrch carrier male who is a great marker runs nice blinds and a awesome hunting dog. That's a good dog isn't it
    Yes..........
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

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